Yazid muslim?? (split from Taif Incident)

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

I think Quran is most of what one needs, all these other minor things are minor and as some recent threads ahve explained cultural/political stuff.

Now the people who were enjoying the baybassi of ahle-rasool, I am nto sure why one would throw it in my face as if that was me or those are people I like. The point is there wereno shia and/or sunni to help them.

So, bringing that up serves no purpose, it was not that I was standing around sipping ona club soda when thsi was happening and that you were there trying to help, This happened way before our times. There are plenty of shia's who are probably descendents of the people who did not raise a finger to help then.

Quran is majority of what I need. I am part of no group who keeps people like yazeed in high esteem, and niether am I with people who parade horses around and beat themselves up.

42

well if it was a minor thing Prophet (pbuh&up) wouldnt have added it in his hadith....khair :)

43

The prophet mentioned many other things in his sayings, we cant pick and choose those that we like then right?

I dont recall any point there which says that teh fundamentals of the religion will be changed? or did I miss something.

so did the fundamentals of the religion change? No..right. The religion was completed, as told by Allah to the prophet. Any of the political issues afterwards do not change the religion.

44

which fundamentals, fraudia, did "change" in your opinion? dont mention horses again.. since they're not fundamental.

45

[QUOTE]
Quran is majority of what I need. I am part of no group who keeps people like yazeed in high esteem, and niether am I with people who parade horses around and beat themselves up.
[/QUOTE]

Sheraz, Perhaps he belongs to that group who said on the day of Thursday, that Quran would suffice them.

Chill fraudz!!

46

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
which fundamentals, fraudia, did "change" in your opinion? dont mention horses again.. since they're not fundamental.
[/QUOTE]

None changed, to me. and thus this whole infighting between muslims as shias and sunnis is ridiculous and pointless. All this cvultural and political mumbo jumbo does not change the faith one bit. No one has the power to change the religion and thus, anything that happened afterwards no matter how sad, how barbarric and how tragic, is a political divide in which I am frankly not interested in...because at the end of the day, my faithis stillw ahat the prophet left us with.

47

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zer01: *

Sheraz, Perhaps he belongs to that group who said "on the day of Thursday" that Quran suffice them.

Chill fraudz!!
[/QUOTE]

zero1

how about we pull back a little from assigning me to any group. shabaash

48

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

zero1

how about we pull back a little from assigning me to any group. shabaash
[/QUOTE]

what ever!!

You told me you follow Mohammad and Allah. In responce I posted a hadith and an ayah from quran and asked you if you really follow Mohammad and Allah. And your responce is just Aaiyn Baiyn Shaiyn.

So If you are agreed to that Hadith and the ayah I posted in my previous post then It would be no problem for me to come back to trak and continue with this discussion.

49

Originally posted by zer01: *
*
what ever!!
**

yeah yeah..whatever indeed, learn from sheraz and ravage's excellent approach, try not to get personal and I would engage in a discussion with you. Making personal remarks is not quite teh right way for educated, civilized adults to have a discussion.

You told me you follow Mohammad and Allah. In responce I posted a hadith and an ayah from quran and asked you if you really follow Mohammad and Allah. And your responce is just Aaiyn Baiyn Shaiyn.

Justr because my answer is not what you wanted does not make it ayen bayen shayen, again learn from Sheraz, as much as we disagree, we dont have to resort to words liek 'whatever" and "ayen bayen shayen"

*So If you are agreed to that Hadith and the ayah I posted in my previous post then It would be no problem for me to come back to trak and continue with this discussion. *

Alter your approach, and I would have no problem discussing anything.

In terms of the hadeeth that you posted, U may want to go back and read when i said that i do not consider him to be a khalifah, or a good human being for that matter. as far as being a muslim, it really is up to Allah, whether or not I consider him a muslim does not change history, does not change my beliefs and does not change the word of God, does it? If i had to hazrad a guess, I would say that he is not a muslim in my books.

Saying this does not make me a shia and not believing in matam and nohay does not make me a sunni :)

50

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

try not to get personal and I would engage in a discussion with you. Making personal remarks is not quite teh right way for educated, civilized adults to have a discussion.
[/QUOTE]

you posted:

people who parade horses around and beat themselves up

What an excellent approach!!

This was not only a personal remark for me but would also for every person who belongs to shia comunity.

[quote]
Justr because my answer is not what you wanted does not make it ayen bayen shayen.
[/quote]

I only asked you two questions. You simply could have answered them with yes or no.

Just for your convenience let me repost that post agian:

[QUOTE]
posted by you:
Have you heard of Muhammad (SAW)?
Thats who I follow
[/QUOTE]

Yeah I also heard what Mohammad said. "

"Whosoever wishes to live and die like me and enter that heaven (after death), which my lord has promised me, namely, the ever lasting heaven should acknowledge Ali (AS) as his patron after me, and after him he should acknowledge the sons of Ali, because they are the people who will never leave you outside the door of guidance nor will they let you enter the door of misguidance."

Sunni references:

-Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p155, Tradition #2578
Also abridged Kanz al-Ummal on the margin of Musnad of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v5, p32

Ali (as) and the Sons of Ali (as). (Twelve caliphs according to Shia belief)

1-Imam Abul-Hasan Ali ibn e Abi Talib (al-Murtaza) (as)
2-Imam Abu Muhammad al-Hassan (al Mujtaba) (as)
3-Imam Abu Abdallah al-Hussain bin Ali (Sayyid al-Shuhada) (as)
4-Imam Abu Muhammad Ali bin al-Hussain (Zainul-'Abideen) (as)
5-Imam Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali (al-Baqir) (as)
6-Imam Abu Abdallah Ja'far bin Muhammad (al-Sadiq) (as)
7-Imam Abu Ibrahim Musa bin Ja'far (al-Kazim) (as)
8-Imam Abu al-Hasan Ali bin Musa (al-Reza) (as)
9-Imam Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali (Taqi al-Jawaad) (as)
10-Imam Abul-Hasan Ali bin Muhammad al-Hadi al-Naqi(as)
11-Imam Abu Muhammad al-Hasan bin Ali (al-Askari) (as)
12-Imam Abul-Qasim Muhammad bin al-Hasan (al-Mahdi) (as)

Yo said you follow Mohammad. Do you acknowledge Ali (AS) and the sons of Ali (as) as your patron after Rasulallah??

[QUOTE]
*posted by you:*and you must have heard of Allah
Thats who I pray to
[/QUOTE]

Yes off-course!! Allah The All Mighty. Who says in his book about himself, His Prophet (saww) and Hz Ali (as)"

AL-MAEDA - 55:

"Only Allah is your Wali and His Prophet and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow."

Do you also believe that Ali (as) is your Wali along with Allah (swt) and Rasullalah(saww)??

I dont think these questions are that difficult to answer for any person who follows Allah(swt)and Mohammad (saww). Are they??!!

[quote]
In terms of the hadeeth that you posted, U may want to go back and read when i said that i do not consider him to be a khalifah.
[/quote]

Yes that was clear to me. The hadith I was reffering to is the one I posted above again.

51

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

None changed, to me. and thus this whole infighting between muslims as shias and sunnis is ridiculous and pointless. All this cvultural and political mumbo jumbo does not change the faith one bit. No one has the power to change the religion and thus, anything that happened afterwards no matter how sad, how barbarric and how tragic, is a political divide in which I am frankly not interested in...because at the end of the day, my faithis stillw ahat the prophet left us with.
[/QUOTE]

See the assumption you're making here is that something that is politial immediately becomes divorced from religion. What if something that was politically motivated resulted in harm to your religion?

As far as faith is concerned, both sides argue that their's is the faith that was complete with the prophet. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Both parties trace their faith to that which was complete in the prophet's life.

52

*Originally posted by zer01: *

you posted:
people who parade horses around and beat themselves up

What an excellent approach!!

This was not only a personal remark for me but would also for every person who belongs to shia comunity. **

Oh so instead of being mature about it and noting that the words offended you which I gladly would have rephrased, you chose to wage a personal attack, and would not see the error of your approach even when made abundantly clear :)

According to others this isa cultural practice and has nothing to do with the faith itself. I personally find teh practice troubling and feel that it has nothing to do with religion. My apologies if it hurt your sentiments. I have shia family members and they do not take part in these activities and are as troubled by them as I am so I believe that this is not a univeral and religious practice.

**
I only asked you two questions. You simply could have answered them with yes or no. **\

I think I answered, now if that is not teh answer you were looking for then what can i do.

Just for your convenience let me repost that post agian:

No need, i read it the first time and posted after reviewing that.

Yo said you follow Mohammad. Do you acknowledge Ali (AS) and the sons of Ali (as) as your patron after Rasulallah??

Indeed, however they are much less important than the prophet and the religion was completed on the prophet so anything added aftwerwards is extra and has notrhing to do with faith, When Allah completed the religion, no human has the authority to add, change or subtract from it.

So whether or not I consider them as wa Wali does not change the faith the Allah completed upon the prophet.

**Yes off-course!! Allah The All Mighty. Who says in his book about himself, His Prophet (saww) and Hz Ali (as)"

AL-MAEDA - 55:

"Only Allah is your Wali and His Prophet and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow."

well I dont think that Hazrat Ali's name is mentioned here :) It says Allaj, and the prophet, I dont see any other names there.

Do you also believe that Ali (as) is your Wali along with Allah (swt) and Rasullalah(saww)??

Would beleving in that change anything. As far as I am concerend. It does not change the fact that I need to pray, fast, etc. So the question is, what is the problem between shias and sunnis, Not belonging to any camp, I can just look with astonishment as each group keeps fighting on and on.

It does not make me read nohay, it does not make me do matam. does it?

I dont think these questions are that difficult to answer for any person who follows Allah(swt)and Mohammad (saww). Are they??!!

No.

Time and time again I have noted that I consider hazrat Ali and Imam Hassan and Hussein as the most important people after the prophet. being Naqvi, I trace my lineage back to those great people and am proud of it.

Believing in the greatness of Hazrat Ali and Imam hasan and Hussein does not make me a shia, and beliving in the greatness of teh khulfa e rashideen does not make me a sunni.

53

Originally posted by ravage: *
**See the assumption you're making here is that something that is politial immediately becomes divorced from religion. *

The religion was completed in the prophets life as far as I am concerned, so anything that happened afterwards is a political issue.

What if something that was politically motivated resulted in harm to your religion?

so you oppose it, but does it fundamentally alter your religion? does the impact of this politicalluy impacted action make you change how you pray, what you believe in etc? No..right?

*As far as faith is concerned, both sides argue that their's is the faith that was complete with the prophet. Its not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Both parties trace their faith to that which was complete in the prophet's life. *

And both parties can try to out do one another and argue for another 1400 centuries as far as I am concerned. I choose to not ascribe to either side.

it may not be as cut and dry, but teh fundamentals remain unchanged. People's interpretation of that can be different as demonstrated by the many sects we have, schools of thought and sub groups.

The shia suni issue may be the biggest sectarian division, but there are plenty of other schools of thought as well. sadly people have been fighting for ages. had people from either side followed what they believed in and atleast had the fundamentals covered, muslims would not be in as much of a mess as we are in.

54

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zer01: *

All what I posted above is taken from the following Books of Ahl-e-Sunnah und Wahbis.

quote:

Al Bidayah wa al Nihaya Volume 8 pages 232,224 and 248
Siyar A'lam Al-Nubala" Volume 4 pages 37-38
Al Sawaiqh al Muhroqa page 131
Thatheer al Janaan page 115
Sharh Fiqh Akbar page 73
Fatawa Azeezi pafe 80 Dhikr Yazeed
Nuzool al Abrar page 97 Dhikr Yazeed
Ya Nabi al Mawaddath Volume 2 page 325 Part 60
Al Nasaa al Kaafiya page 120
Tareekh Ibn Khaldun Volume 1 page 179
Sharh Aqaid Nasfee page 113 Dhikr Yazeed
Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 pages, 152, 153 and 156 and 450 events of 52 Hijri
Al Imama wa al Siayasa page 165
Iqd al Fareed Voume 2 page 258 Dhikr Yazeed
Tareekh Abu al Fala Volume 1 page 186 Dkihr al Khabar Mu'awiya
Al Akbar al Taweel page 268 Dhikr Yazeed
Tareekh Tabari Volume 7 page 146
Rasail page 129 by Abu Bakr Jauzi
Maqathil Husayn page 172 Ch 9
Tadkhira Khawwas page 164
Shazath al Dhabab Volume 1 page 69 events of 61 Hijri
Tareekh al Khulafa page 204 Dhikr Mu'awiya
Al Khabar al Awal page 61 Dhikr Hukumith Ibn Ziyad
Tareekh Khamees oage 300 Dhikr Yazeed
Hayaath al Haywaan Volume 2 page 196
Tareekh Islam Volume 2 page 356 events of 63 Hijri
Ahsan aur Meezan Volume 5 page 284
Tafseer Mazhari Volume 5 page 61 Surah Ibraheem part 13
Murudjh al Dhahab Volume 3 page 78 Dhikr Yazeed
Taufa Ithna Ashari page 6 Chapter 1
Muttalib al Saul Volume 2 page 26 Dhikr Husayn
Nur al Absar page 139 Dhikr Husayn
Sharh Muqassid Volume 2 page 309 Part 6
Al Tabaqat al Akbar Volume 5 page 96
Mustadrak al Hakim Volume 3 page 522
Tareekh Ibn Asakir page 275
Al Isaba page 181
Meezan al Itidal Volume 4 page 440
Wafa al Wafa Volume 1 page 127
Tahdheeb al Itidal Volume 11 page 361
Tabthaseer wa al Sharaf page 265 Dhikr Yazeed
Mujum al buldan Volume 2 page 253 Dkikr Harra
Fathul Bari Volume 13 page 70 Dhikr Yazeed
Irshad al Sari Volume 10 pages 171 and 199 Bab ul Fitan
Sirush Shahadathayn page 26 Dhikr Shahadath Imam Hasan
Minhajj al Sunnah page 239 Dhikr Yazeed
Takmeel al Iman page 178
Shaheed Karbala pages 11-12 by Mufti Muhammad Shaafi
Sharh Muwatta Imam Malik Volume 5 page 435 by Shaykh Muhammad akaria
Tareekh Milat page 55 Part 3 by Qadhi Zaynul Abideen
Tarrekh Islam Volume 2 page 56 by Akbar Najeeb Abadhi
Bahar Shariat Volume 1 page 76
Hidayaath al Shi'a Volume 1 page 95 by Allamah Rasheed Ahmad **angohi
Isthaklah ai Yazeed page 312 by Maulanan Lal Shah Bukhari
**Fitna Kharijee Volume 1 page 267 by Qadhi Madhar Husayn
Mukthubaath Shaykhul Islam Volume 1 page 267 by Maulana Husayn amdani
Sharh Shifa Volume 1 page 694 by Mulla 'Ali Qari al Hanafi
Siraaj Muneer Sharh Jama Sagheer Volume 3 page 382
Hujutul Balagha page 507
Qasim al Ulum page 221
Nabraas ala Sharh Aqaid page 553
Ahsaaf al Ghaneen page 210
Yazeed bin Mu'awiya page 30 by Ibn Taymeeya
Muktobaath page 203 by Qadhi Thanaullah Panee Pathee
Al Shabeeya page 60 by Barelvi
Al Mafooz page 114 Barelvi
Ahsaan alwa page 52 by Barelvi
Ahkam Shariat Volume 2 page 88 Barelvi
Fatawi Volume 5 page 51 by AA Thanvi
Fatawa Rasheediya Volume 1 page 7
Skahyk al Islam bu Muhammad Qaim Nanothi Voluime 1 page 258
Imam Pak aur Yazeed paleeth by M Shaafi page 33
Tabat Ibn Sa'd page 283 Dhikr Ma'aqil bin Sanan
Mirqaat Sharh mishkaat Volume 1 page 120
Umdah Qari fo Sharh Bukhari Volume 11 page 334
Fatawa Azeezi Volume 1 page 21
Izalath al Ghaneen Volume 1 page 368 by Maulana Haydher 'Ali
Muttalib al Saul page 26
Nur al Absar page 139
Neel al Authar Volume 7 page 181 Dhikr Jihad
Tahdheeb Abu Shakur Shaami page 15
Al Samra page 317 by ibn Shareef Shaami
Mujmua al Zadhaar page 241
Khilafat Mu'awiya aur Yazeed page 378 Dhikr Yazeed
Muruj al Nubuwat Volume 1 page 126
Ahkam al Qur'an Volume 3 page 119
Tareekh Ibn Asakir Volume 5 page 107
Tafseer Ruh al Ma'ani page 72 Surah Muhammad
Siraj Muneera Sharh Jama al Sagheera Volume 2 page 80 Letter Alif
Shadharat al Dhahab page 69, Volume 1
Wafa al-Wafa Volume 1 page 217

It is proven from the sources of Ahl'ul Sunnah that Yazeed rejected the concept of revelation; rather he deemed all this a stage for power by Rasulullah (s). This proves that Yazeed was a kaafir, so what right do these Nasibi have to extol Yazeed, deem him to to the rightful Khalifah over the Muslims and Ameer'ul Momineen?

Source of the above article

Edit: *wondering if you still believe him as your rightful 6th khalifa

[/QUOTE]

Bhai..i rechecked ur refrences....and as expected ....most of the socalled refrences you posted ( copy/pasted) were either not true or were misquoted.....

this has happend before with the refreces some of u have quoted from asnwering ansar site......

kindly dont just copy paste stuff to prove other wrong...try to get to the truth....

refrences in bold were cross checked...and nothing was found to be true......

SUNNI CONCEPT

Sunni have disagrement over whether to do lanat on yazeed or not......

but they have never said with surity that he was kaffir......

an that is the most prudent approach of an event that took place 1400 years ago and in which stories were mixed with realities....

55

Oh, My bad. I thought you would aware of that incident when Hazrat Ali(as) gave his ring to a beggar while he was bowing before Allaah (swt)

Please click on the following link and read the incident:

Certainly your Master is …

P.S. Sorry for a short reply. am not feeling well. Will get back to you soon. Insha Allah.

56

bao bihari
If you think that these references are taken from Answering Ansar then why don’t you go and challenge them for the authentication of reference. However some people are working on making scanned image for those books and post on website for your conveniences; some of the work has already been done.

zer0
Even if you prove him a Jew Na’thal they wouldn’t believe. Because they are enemies of Ahle Baith (AS). They themselves are not sure about Yazid. Some says he is a muslim, some says he is not a muslim, some says don’t talk about him (just to hide the facts; like Ghazali and others). Now some are trying to make him Imam; Imam Yazid

People are learning about the facts from this discussion. Thanks to ravage, Sheraz CT and zer01; excellent inputs. And I will appreciate Fraudz for his time and effort.

57

zero1 i was saying that the words that you quoted does not mention Hazrat Ali by name.

58

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by inuit: *
**bao bihari*
If you think that these references are taken from Answering Ansar then why don’t you go and challenge them for the authentication of reference. However some people are working on making scanned image for those books and post on website for your conveniences; some of the work has already been done.

[/QUOTE]

Atleast i am challeging you ..intuit......

go find some scanned images (whole page) of the above refrences......:-)

59

Check this website and many other fanatics’ sunni website, you will find almost same kind of statements

Imam Hussain (A) was not only from Sahaba but he was from Ahle Bait(A).

(1) Yazid was not a Sahabai
(2) Yazid tried to take allegiance from Imam Hussain who denied it and he was a (Aadil) momin.
(3) Yazid ordered to kill Imam Hussain (A).
(3) Governors of Yazid forced Imam Hussain; and Yazid never punished them.
(4) those Governors remained on their post after the event of Karbala.

Those who deny accepting Sahaba as momin is a kafir and the one who killed and involved in killing Ahle Bait(A) is not a kafir.

What a philosophy.

Dawa hay ka Musa per emaan hay lakin Firoun ki Firouniyat per shuk hay.
Dawa hay ka Khuda per emaan hay lakin Satan Sataniyat per shuk hay

Sub kuch shahi hay --This is sunni school of thought. no comments

60

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
Check this website and many other fanatics’ sunni website, you will find almost same kind of statements

Imam Hussain (A) was not only from Sahaba but he was from Ahle Bait(A).

(1) Yazid was not a Sahabai
(2) Yazid tried to take allegiance from Imam Hussain who denied it and he was a (Aadil) momin.
(3) Yazid ordered to kill Imam Hussain (A).
(3) Governors of Yazid forced Imam Hussain; and Yazid never punished them.
(4) those Governors remained on their post after the event of Karbala.

Those who deny accepting Sahaba as momin is a kafir and the one who killed and involved in killing Ahle Bait(A) is not a kafir.

What a philosophy.

Dawa hay ka Musa per emaan hay lakin Firoun ki Firouniyat per shuk hay.
Dawa hay ka Khuda per emaan hay lakin Satan Sataniyat per shuk hay

Sub kuch shahi hay --This is sunni school of thought. no comments
[/QUOTE]

Intuit...there is nothing wrong with the statement......

secondly start a new thread on sunni websites.....

here we are discussing the wrong refrences given by answering ansar