Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

I cannot say about who is responsible of Saleem Shahzad murder, but regardless, I do not think that ISI tells truth to public all the time, as being an intelligence organisation, they have to lie at many occasions just to safeguard Pakistani interest (or interest they think is necessary to suppress to save Pakistan from harm or to benefit Pakistan).

On the other hand, I do believe that they are competent organisation who work professionally, and reports to their superior truthfully. On the other hand, there is no doubt that ISI also have some crook elements, especially sympathisers of terrorists, who might behave individually and against the state.

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and the most competent intelligence agency in the world cannot identify those crook elements within its folds? bahut aala!

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

In a country where millions are willing to die for their misguided religious beliefs, anything can happen. No power can save targets from people who are well determined to attack without caring for their own life.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

That bloody civilian (aka PM) when raising question should have realised that, if Pakistan has issued him Passport than OBL did not needed any visa, and if OBL was issued with visa than he should be having valid Passport (something he never had). :)

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

I also lived in Pakistan for years and visit Pakistan regularly. My observation is that, life of poor becomes more secure, less exploited, more bearable, more prosperous, etc when military is ruling the country and becomes less secure, unbearable, miserable and exploited when bloody civilian rule the country.

Thus, Pakistani army comes as blessing for poor of the country, though they come as terror for those elites who loot and plunder the country. So, how can I compare Pakistan army with militias of banana republics, whose forces are terror for people and blessing for elites?

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Yahi tou problem hay. These elements have powerful supports from within army. These elements have considerable support from public too (who are mostly vocal), and also have support from politicians. So, it is difficult to punish them easily.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Some of the achievements of ISI (the best and most competent intelligence agency of the world)...

1) Could not locate OBL living a few meters away from the most prestigious academy of Pakistan Army, and then couldnt stop the Americans intruding all the way through our airspace and almost reaching Islamabad
2) Couldnt pre empt and stop hundreds of suicide bombings during the past 4-5 years
3) GHQ attack, ISI HQ's attack, FIA, Naval Hq's and countless bold attacks
4) Hundreds of spies roaming around and killing Pakistani spies, and couldnt stop them
5) The way of operation of intelligence/military not different as compared to the enemies they claim to be fighting
6) AQ khan carrying out nuclear profileration they didnt know

What else could one want?

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

^^^ I do not know ... but apart of 2 and 3, do you know how much of what you wrote happened with consent of ISI and how much without consent?

As for 2 and 3, you are right that things happened that should not have happened, but in a country where budget for intelligence agencies is very low compare to burdens of work, and due to number of terrorists operating in the country, such things are not unexpected.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Can you please list some achievements of the army (kill and dump is hardly an achievement).

Please do not start on economy as in 1979 Zia jumped into American jehad and earned billions of dollars, and then Musharraf earned dollars through war on terror.

The main function of the army is to defend the nation:

What are their achievements in defence?

1) Bangladesh?

2) Siachin?

3) Kargil?

4) Nuclear proliferation?

5) Balochistan?

6) Ill thought out participation in WOT causing a lot of suffering for the people within the country?

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

According to Pakistani constitutionally, what I know, there is no provision of civilian court martial (civilians tried by military court), and knowing Pakistani public, media, politicians and Judiciary, it is possible that army must have decided that it is better not to start something that could become controversial in later years. Hence probably that is the reason they did not started civilian court martial.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

and I guess that's why beloved Mush joined hands with 'the terrorized' elite by granting them NRO.

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and guess wat.. who gave these millions these 'misguided' religious beliefs? was it just short-sightedness? or some doctrine?

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

What is the meaning (or purpose) of defending a country from outside forces when internal forces are destroying the country from within?

Obviously, army cannot and should not let thugs destroy the country with their loot and plunder, in the name of demon-crazy.

[quote]
What are their achievements in defence?

1) Bangladesh?

2) Siachin?

3) Kargil?

4) Nuclear proliferation?

5) Balochistan?

6) Ill thought out participation in WOT causing a lot of suffering for the people within the country?
[/quote]

It is due to their defensive ability that Pakistan holds Azad Kashmir, FATA, part of ‘Rann of kutch’, and rest of remaining Pakistan, else without any army to defend, Afghanistan claims FATA, India claims Azad Kashmir and ‘Runn of Kutch’, and India also believes that Pakistan should not exist.

Pakistan defence budget is ~ $5 billion, when opposing power (India) has defence budget of ~ $40 billion. So, one can say that if Pakistan is holding status-co with such incomparable budget, than that in itself is a commendable achievement.

Anyhow, coming to what you mentioned:

1 Bangladesh: It was not entirely military fault that BD was lost. Pakistani politicians were not willing to sit together, and probably army (however wrongly) thought that whatever they would do, no political party would turn internal problem into independence movement, and even if they would do that, then they though army is strong enough to suppress that independence movement. Unfortunately Pakistan army was not strong enough, especially when India came in. So, however sad, but one cannot just blame armed forces (though one cannot exonerate them completely too).

2 Siachin: Unfortunately, Pakistan defence budget was never enough that Pakistan could afford to keep continuous presence on all areas in Kashmir, especially areas that is all the time under ice. India took advantage of that weakness, and took over Siachin when Pakistan forces were not there. Anyhow, we cannot entirely blame Pakistan, as Pakistan lost to a power (India) that has defence budget ~ 8 times what Pakistan has.

3 Kargil: Kargil was under Pakistani rule, but was presented to India in Shimla agreement by Z A Bhutto. Pakistan army took it over in 1999 and could have kept it, but Pakistani politicians ran to USA when India made hue and cry all over the world and Americans (along with many other countries) started condemning Pakistan. In the end, Pakistani politicians gave it back to India, losing occupied kargil on table (what they should not have done). Anyhow, some part of Kargil that Pakistan captured is still with Pakistan.

4 Nuclear proliferation: Pakistan has not signed NPT, so it does not matter what Pakistan did. Anyhow, if it happened, most of it happened during 1990s, when politicians were in power.

5 Baluchistan: Pakistan is confederation, and thus many politicians, especially from smaller provinces believe that Pakistan should not be treated as one country. Same is true with Baluchsitan where Sardars believe that they are rulers and Pakistani laws are not applicable in their areas. Pakistan army always considered Baluchistan as undisputed part of Pakistan, something Baloch Sardars contest. Such conflicts create friction that is going on since 1948.

1948: It was Abdul karim Khan.
1958: It was Nowroz Khan who was jailed and many of his family members executed (hanged) by Ayub Khan.
1963: It was Marri Sardar (Bijrani): Ceasefire was declared when Yahya Khan broke one-unit and Baluchistan was made province.
1973: It was Marri Sardar and Mengal Sardar: This was the only war that started because Bhutto wanted to rule Baluchsitan over their elected representatives, sacking elected government and imposing Governor Rule. War ended when Zia came to power.
2004: Bugti Sardar (Akbar Khan) and Marri Sardar (Balach): Musharraf government wanted to develop Baluchistan and impose Pakistani Jurisdiction all over Baluchistan. Musharraf also wanted development of areas directly, bypassing Sardars. This was unacceptable for Sardars, as Pakistani jurisdiction means them losing power and immunity in their areas, development funds bypassing them mean no control over their areas, and direct development means no control over money allocated to their area.

So, why just blame military rule for disturbance in Baluchsitan?

6 Ill thought out participation in WOT causing a lot of suffering for the people within the country?
Lot of sufferings to whom?

Pakistan is not fighting someone who is innocent and unarmed, rather Pakistan is fighting a group of people whose agenda is to rule Pakistan and force Pakistanis into submission so that they can impose their misguided religious beliefs on Pakistan.

Before 9/11 they were slowly building their power in Pakistan, but after 9/11 they came out of their hole and started challenging writ of Pakistan openly.

Thus, WOT that Pakistan is fighting within Pakistan, is fighting for survival of Pakistan (or at least survival of Pakistan that exists today). Pakistan is not fighting someone else war, as crushing these terrorists militarily is for future and safety of Pakistan and not for any other country.

[Note: No country fights a war for another country when they (armed forces of that country) are fighting armed people within country and not outside the country. Actually when armed people are fighting government within country, than that itself is proof that war belongs to country and not to any outside country]

So, what is your take? If a group of people want to kill innocent Pakistanis in the name of their misguided sectarian beliefs, and want to impose their misguided beliefs all over Pakistan by force, than would you like government to fight them or surrender to them?

Obviously, if government would decide to fight these armed terrorists then they would fight, killing mostly civilians considering them soft target. In such situation, some unfortunate Pakistanis becoming target would suffer in their hands. On the other hand, if Pakistan government would surrender to them than whole Pakistan would suffer, as with time they would become strong enough to take over Pakistan. So, Pakistan have to make choice. You may have difference with my opinion (and choice), but for me, Pakistan should fight.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Different person thinks differently and take threat differently, same can be said of Musharraf. Probably Musharraf thought that armed terrorists fighting Pakistan and threatening Pakistan future are more dangerous for country then financial thugs, thus it is important that Pakistan fights armed terrorists and if financial thugs could help in this respect than not to hesitate holding hands with them. Hence promulgation of NRO, however wrong it was.

In my opinion, breading these terrorists, expecting that they may be of any future help, was a dangerous experiment that went wrong. You can call that short-sightedness, or intentional agenda of someone ruling in 1980s when this fitna entered the region, one can only speculate.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Are you shy or afraid of naming mardood Zia-ul-Haq?

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons


Please do not make assumptions, if you have seen the proceedings, if you know for a fact then do let us know otherwise you are shooting in the dark.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Is law a condiment? - Babar Sattar

In all civilised countries there continues a tug of war between the prosecution and the defence. Both sides call each other names but they agree on a code: that everyone is to be considered innocent until proven guilty through due process of law.

History has established that every time a society has tried to tweak this fundamental premise it has upset the delicate balance between safety and efficacy that a criminal justice system needs to strike in order to produce justice. But our khakis, especially those in the ISI, will have none of this. Be it Baloch nationalists or ‘miscreants’ of the missing variety in the rest of Pakistan, the ISI and the khakis involved in internal security duties seem convinced that their judgment is infallible and playing judge, jury and executioner all at once is in the country’s best interest.

The mega-narrative nurtured under khaki rule has sold us a cannibalistic conception of national security that preys on citizen security. It has promoted a myopic notion of national interest that is inspired by fear, hate and conspiracies, a foreign policy that promises to grant us the permanent status of a pariah state and a view of religion that prohibits citizen equality.

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

West India Company is actual busy in their financial goals .

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Re: Woman dies a day after seeing ‘missing’ sons

Who are the 11 people in custody? If half of the report below is correct, they do deserve to be locked up forever.

ISI Officials: Adiala 11 are Hardcore Terrorists | PKKH.tv

RAWALPINDI – A security official while responding to the issue of Adiala jail detainees said that sympathizers of terrorists have forgotten the miseries of those 28 innocent families, who suffered the loss of their loved ones in Hamza Camp attack in which these 11 detainees were arrested.Media should reach out to those families of victims who embraced shahadat at the hands of these Adiala Jail detainees, the security official added.

He said the 11 suspects: Dr Niaz Ahmed Saqib, Mazhar ul Haq, Shafique ur Rehman, Abdul Basit, Abdul Saboor, Abdul Majid, Muhammad Amir Khan Khan, Muhammad Shafiq aka Maaz, Tehseen ullah, Saeed Arab aka Tariq Gul, Roze Khan aka Farman are hardcore terrorists, who were involved in planning, facilitating and executing suicide attacks on bus near Hamza Camp, on November 24 2007 and Kamra Air Base missile attack on January 15, 2008.
According to sources, on November 24, 2007 Rawalpindi experienced twin suicide attacks on security forces, which killed nearly 30 people and injured dozens more. The first vehicle-borne suicide attack took place at 0749 hours when a suicide bomber rammed his explosive-laden car into a 72-seater bus parked in front of ISI’s Hamza Camp (Previously known as Ojhri Camp) on the Murree Road.
According to eyewitnesses, the bus which was carrying ISI officials to their work place was completely burnt. The 28 victims inside the 72-seat bus were burnt beyond recognition and only skeletons were left lying on the seats before any rescue operation could be started.
The Security Official said 11 suspects of Adiala Jail who were detained legally by security agencies are all hard core terrorists who planned and executed Hamza Camp bus attack and GHQ Gate attack on November 24, 2007 and also Kamra missile attack on January 2008.
The Security Official said Dr Niaz Ahmed Saqib was the mastermind of Hamza Camp and GHQ attack on November 24, 2011. Trail of this attack which revealed during investigation is nothing less than a suspense movie. Dr Niaz was apprehended at Mardan on December 7,2007. He is a resident of Allama Iqbal Colony Rawalpindi. He is an educated man, who has done Masters in Political Science from Punjab University and also qualified himself in homeopathic medicines.
During custody, he admitted that in August 2007, he along with Umar Farooq (Nephew of Ghazi brothers), Mazhar, Nafees and Khalid decided to avenge Lal Masjid operation. Dr Niaz also financially assisted Ghazi brothers before security forces lanunched operation in 2007.
To this end Umar Farooq arranged their visit to Wana, South Wazirastan Agency where they met one Aslam who assured them of their full cooperation. On instructions of Aslam they carried out reconnaissance and made movies all targets which included Ojri camp, ISI HQ, Attock Oil Company, Chaklala Cantt, officers colonies. Mazhar took this video to Wana to show it to Yasin aka Aslam. In Mid October Dr Niaz with the help of Mazhar arranged two vehicles for targeting GHQ and Hamza Camp. Umer Farooq arranged these vehicles with the help of Abdul Majid, Abdul Basit and Abdul Saboor (3 borthers).
Then Shafiq ur Rehman transported explosive, anti personnel mines, 70 rounds of mortar, detonator by a Baleno car which was owned by Dr Niaz in two trips. All the equipment which was to be used for attack on GHQ and Hamza Camp was received at Misrial road and dumped at newly constructed house of Dr Niaz at Dhok Mustaqeem.
Dr Niaz, Mazhar and Khalid prepared both vehicles for suicide attacks at the same house. 45 mortars were placed inside Suzuki Van along with three mines. Similarly 35 mortar rounds alongwith three mines were fitted in Baleno car for the assigned mission. On November 21, Shafiq ur Rehman brought two suicide bombers from Wana to Rawalpindi. On November 22, Dr Niaz asked Noor Muhammad to bring both suicide bombers to Choor Chowk. Dr Niaz in his silver Sunny Car drove both the suicide bombers for orientation of the target.
They again went for orientation on November 23, and finalized their programme for next morning. On November 24, 2007 Noor Muhammad handed over one suicide bomber nominated for GHQ with Dr Niaz and took other one by taxi for handing over to Mazhar for Hamza Camp. At 0740 hours Dr Niaz was informed by Khalid who was at Kachehri Chowk that a two star had just passed.
Hearing this Dr Niaz handed over the Baleno car which was fully charged to a suicide bomber and took a taxi himself and left for Islamabad. He heard a blast enroute to Islamabad. The other suicide bomber who was with Mazhar reached in a Suzuki Van and parked it near PSO Petrol pump on Murree Road and started waiting for ISI bus. After handing over vehicle to a suicide bomber Mazhar also left for I-9 Markaz where Dr Niaz was waiting for him. Enroute Islamabad he heard a huge blast.
Another suspect Mazhar ul Haq is resident of I-9 Islamabad and was into rent a car business with the name of ‘Aman Rent a Car’. He joined an extremist group in 1996 and got training at Khalid Bin Waleed Camp. He also worked in Publicity Section of a banned outfit and there he got in contact with Dr Niaz. During Lal Masjid episode he helped Umer Farooq (nephew of Ghazi brothers) in transportation of ammunition from Darra. Dr Niaz alongwith Mazhar ul Haq and Khalid and Nafees used to visit Lal Masjid and helped in preparation of petrol bombs. He got weapon training from Ustad Mavia at Wana. After completing his training Ustad Mavia asked to carry out photography of targets at Rawalpindi and gave him money for purchase of a camera. After photography of targets he alongwith Niaz went to Wana and handed over the film to Ustad Mavia.
Mazhar was throughout helping Dr Niaz and party in carrying out preparation for attack on Hamza Camp. He was apprehended on March 28, 2008. Security Official disclosed that another suspect Shafique ur Rehman was apprehended on November 24, 2007. He is a resident of Mardan.
In 1999 Shafique got terrorist training and later joined a terrorist group. In November 2007 he met Baitullah Mehsud who dispatched two suicide bombers with him to Rawalpindi.
These suicide bombers were used in attack on Hamza camp and GHQ on November 24. He arrived at Rawalpindi from SWA alongwith two suicide bombers and stayed at a Baithak in Chishtian Abad from November 21 to 24, 2011. These suicide bombers were Mehsood by tribe. One Latif, 27 was tasked to target GHQ while Adnan 20 was to target Hamza Camp. Before he left Wana Baitullah Mehsood also gave him Rs 8000 for expenditure on suicidal attack. Shafique remained engaged till last and assisted in reconnaissance of targets by suicidal and later their transportation to sites.
Security Official said that Muhammad Aamir Khan is resident of Rawalpindi. In year 2000 he received training in weapon handling and firing at Resh Khor HUJI training camp Afghanistan.
After training he fought at Mazare Sharif, Afghanistan where he was apprehended by troops of Rasheed Dostam and shifted to Shabarghan jail where he spent three years. After three years he was handed over to Pakistan authorities and shifted to Peshawar and later Adiala
Jail. He was released on April 4, 2005. He started visiting Lal Masjid and established contacts with Ghazi brothers, Dr Niaz and Mazhar and also met Umer Farooq and Abdul Basit. He was apprehended on May 1, 2007 at Rawalpindi while supplying arms, explosive and other material for use in Lal Mosque. He was kept in detention for 3 months and released on bail on August 25, 2007. Immediately after his
release he met Mazhar and Dr Niaz and told them that he is expert in explosive handling and wants to avenge Lal Masjid Operation.
He physically participated in preparation of vehicles used for terrorism on GHQ attack 2007 and Hamza Camp ISI vehicle attack. He was apprehended by police in Quetta in 2008. Abdul Majid,Abdul Basit and Abdul Saboor three brothers are resident of Lahore Ichhra. Originally they belong to Togh Bala, Kohat. They had contacts with people in Lal Masjid and were involved in all activities of Lal Masjid. Beside their involvement in other extremist activities they were involved in GHQ attack and Hamza Camp.
They helped main accused of the suicide attack Mazhar in purchase of Suzuki van and Baleno car from Lahore which was later used in Hamza Camp and GHQ attack where 30 people were burnt alive. They were apprehended from Lahore on November 27 and 29, 2007. Later Abdul Saboor died in Lady Reading Hospital due to ailment. Abdul Majid has been receiving treatment for his ailment. He is suffering from Urinal Tract infection, anxiety, depression, infected scabies. He was admitted to LRH on January 27, 2012.
Muhammad Shafique was a hard core terrorist who was apprehended on January 20, 2008 for his involvement in Kamra Complex missile attack.
Since January 2007 he had been studying in Haqqania Madrassa, Akora Khattak. In September 2007 he went to Miranshah for training. After training he went to Paktia, Afghanistan and stayed there for 50 days. On return he became active member of a terrorist group. He was involved in all stages of Kamra Complex missile attack on January 14, 2008 for which 10 missiles were brought from Mohmand agency.
Another suspect of Kamra Complex Gul Roze Khan aka Farman. He was apprehended on January 21, 2008 at Chhota Lahore, Swabi. He is a resident of villabge Nabi, Chhota Lahore, Swabi. He was student of Madrassa Akora Khattak. In early 2006 he went to wana and received terrorist training in weapon handling and grenade throwing. He used to spent his vacation in SWA. He helped in transportation of missiles from Mohmand agency and was physically involved in Kamra Complex attack.
The Official disclosed that Saeed Arab Hussain was another suspect of Kamra complex. He was arrested on January 21, 2008 at Chhota Lahore Swabi. He completed his studies at Madrassa Akora Khattak. He also underwent terrorist training at Miranshah. All explosive material used in Kamra complex was stored at his place and he is the main harbor and facilitator of Kamra attack. At the time of his arrest 1 vehicle, 1 kk rifle, 1 pistol and 1 hand grenade were also recovered from his possession. He also handed over 16 bags of potassium nitrate to Qasim which were used in making explosive material for attack on Kamra.
Tehseen Ullah another suspect of Kamra missile attack was apprehended on January 15, 2008 from Jehangira Swabi road. He is a resident of Armour colony, Nowshera and a student of 7th grade Jamia Haqqania, Akora Khattak since 2000. He was actively involved in missile attack of Kamra Complex and many other terrorists activities.
It is important to remember that the Supreme court of Pakistan released these hardcore terrorists on technicalities and lack of circumstantial evidence. Despite Pakistan being a victim of countless terror attacks killing and injuring hundreds of thousands of people, Pakistan’s courts have failed to convict and hang (as per the death penalty applicable in terror cases) a single terrorist in Pakistan in the last decade.

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If its true they should be hanged, but for the past few months no case is being pursued against them.