Mundyaa, so what’s your answer to that? That Western media should not print about crimes committed by Muslims? Have you ever read a Pakistani Newspaper’s coverage about Israelis? Even the leading national circulation feels proud about headlining Jews with such a dissenting tone and connotation that the word Jew has become synonymous to a curse. The mere fact that you right their name is this context “Jewish Press” is a proof of that. If you are so abreast about them saying “Islamic” criminals, you don’t think twice before saying “Jewish” press.
This is exactly what Zara is saying, that your divine revelations has messed up your brains more than you realize. You don’t realize how big a fool you make of yourself by doing what you don’t want other to do to you.
NaikLarki,
I am not saying that this is sanctioned by Islam. REREAD my POST. I said "I never said that these guys were following Islam when they did this. But the sick thing is, they probably thought they were." You may have noticed that over and over again in my posts I have said "our CULTURE." Islam encourages remarriage. Muhammed married a divorced woman.
Zara
Okay, I have relaxed a little now. The point that I am trying to get across, and which some of you are trying so hard to dismiss, is that we have some very bad customs in our country, which are supported by many and are not punished. The mindset is not changing, it is getting worse!
Pakistan and other Muslim countries distinguish themselves from the West by saying "We are Muslim, we are different, we are better." When the West looks at the things that happen in these countries such as honor killings, terrorist acts, OF COURSE they blame it on the religion, rightly or wrongly. The thing is, the people committing these crimes often times THINK that the religion is supporting their crimes. That is why these customs do not fade away!
U didn't get my point BiBi....
read ur statement again.....
u wrote....
[quote]
After reading this, is anyone surprised that the West stereoptypes us? That
people have a bad opinion about Muslims and their attitude toward women?
[/quote]
U used the word "Muslim" there....u did exactly what western media is doing....this is "Not" islamic culture...i donno what u mean when u say "Our Culture"....???
a better word to be used there wud be..."Paki"...but even "Paki" is not a good enuff word...coz pakistan is not the only country out there wid these kinda problems....
but i can still live wid the word paki...
not wid the "Muslim"....especially if its coming from a muslim....
Naik,
Islam does not allow for such behavior. Agreed! But who is doing it. Muslims. Why are they doing it? Because they think they are following Islam. When the West reports it, they think of us in terms of our basic difference with them, RELIGION. They have not read Quran, they do not know the difference between the real message and its interpretation. Is this such a surprise? Anything that we do will be seen as representative of our people, our culture and our Religion. Is this so hard to understand?
Zara
[quote]
When the West looks at the things that happen in these countries such as honor killings, terrorist acts, OF COURSE they blame it on the religion, rightly or wrongly.
[/quote]
Then perhaps you should stand up and diffuse these negative stereotypes. Let the alimight West know about their igorance about Islam and why it should change. Don't drop your head in sorrow or shame.
Zaraatif, what has happened and that you have described in your post, is indeed a tragedy. If you picked up any Pakistani newpaper, it will be filled with these mind bogling, and sickly killings. This is everyday stuff over there. However, by no means does Islam promotes this type of behavior. Whatever, these people do they are solely responsible for it. What exactly happens is that when a couple of stories like these are published in the Western world, the whole Pakistan is labelled as giving refuge to sick minded perverts who don't respect their females. THIS is only the ignorance of western media and culture and it's carriers. YES THE MAJORITY might be like this but one can not say that ALL OF PAKISTAN is like that. I think the only solution to this problem and many others like this one would be the wide spread influence of education. IF in Pakistani society we can make education a common practice, then more people will be educated and more will be aware of their rights and rights of others.
Things will only change for Muslim women if they unite and DEMAND their share of the pie in form of social, economic justice.
The taboos and prejudices that muslim women face today have been faced "to a lesser degree" by European & N.American women as well and, the only way they were able to crash the 'Male' made barriers was that some women decided - Enough was enough, created a movement that lead to their emancipation.
Now, the proponents of the status quo will quickly jump and accuse that I am suggesting a western style concept of women liberation. No, I am not; however, I do advocate that things need to change for the better in our muslim societies. It will happen - either, we do it now or later or, have it forced down our throat!
BB...i told u it doesnot surprise me when west stereotypes us......ofcourse west doesn't have knowledge about Islam...
U have knowledge(do u?)....i have knowledge(i hope so)....we know....so isn't this our duty to tell them the truth about islam instead of saying...yes we "Muslim" do it...yes this is islam...???
and BB as i said before this is not only our problem....alomst all of the third world countries face these same kinda problems...and ofcourse the reason is ignorance....why r u guys not blaming it on ignorance...jahalia......why do u find it so easy to put all the blames on islam????
Once again...BB...West doesnot bothers me at all....You guys are bothering me...
And Bibi when i use the term "U"...i don't mean westerns.....i mean apnay muslim behn bhai....jo west ki haaN meiN haaN milaana apna farz samajtay heiN...and i wonder whats the reason behind this?? Lack of Islamic Knowledge?????
PS. wesay is it in vogue to denounce Islam???or this is ur way of saying thanx to these western universities for granting u degrees.....a person wid a Bs. will denounce "Muslims"....Ms.....denounce "Islam"...and hey...Phd....."i have a right to denounce Allah And Rasool"......
PSS. Sighz Sighz Sighz this is 2nd day in a row....first i had to read those comments by Aanchal about Rasool Allah...and now this.....
[quote]
Originally posted by ghalib:
** Then perhaps you should stand up and diffuse these negative stereotypes. Let the alimight West know about their igorance about Islam and why it should change. Don't drop your head in sorrow or shame.**
[/quote]
I do this as much as I can with the people I know. By the way, this article was not published in the West, it is from Dawn, in case people didn't notice.
Adbulmalick and Rare diamonds, I do agree with you.
NaikLarki, I am finding it hard to understand why you think I am denouncing Islam? Please quote the spot where I am denouncing Islam? Stop sighing and read my posts. And don't lump me with Anchal.
"ISLAM" has "NOTHING" to do with this attitude which is adopted by the entire
Sub-Cont!!!!!!
Islam koa iss discussion meiN ghaseet kay, apni society kay kaalay kartoot aur ghatiya khayaalat koa Validate/Legitimize karnay ki koyee zaroorat naheeN!!!
Unless someone has Personally gone through something similar, feel free to Question me..
Warna, share the Thandi Lassi I brought and I will leave, letting you guys get back to your discussion....smile
I see that some people are comparing oranges to apples here. What are the underlying cultural dynamics of incidents like this one? Few words come to mind. Ghairat or so called chauvinistic pride over ownership of women, treatment of women in our culture at a general level, ignorance, and violence. I think these factors are a lot more responsible than any sort of mis-education of religion or misinterpretation of religious beliefs. If those who committed the crime labeling it so then they are trying to get away from condemnation by finding a scapegoat on the name of religion.
So when you say that That people have a bad opinion about Muslims and their attitude toward women? you are implying that even if our religion does not teach this, just because the criminals wrongfully take shelter behind religion, Western media justifiably stereotypes us. If Western media fails to report the incident in the context of its underlying cultural psyche then it's not doing its job either. If you look at the incident itself, it is not hard at all to figure out that it got nothing to do with what those criminals believe religion says. So just because I say I'm on Jihad while I go out in the mall today on a killing spree does not mean that media should take my word for it. It does have the responsibility of pinpointing that I just went wacko. Media needs to realize that just because it happened in a Muslim country does not mean that it should not investigate the actual, social cause and effect. Now if media stereotypes Muslim treatment of women based on incidents in Afghanistan or situation of women in Saudi Arabia then I think it makes more sense. But this incident does not fall under such category.
As for as comparing the cultures is concerned, I think the more appropriate approach here is rather to compare the judicial systems than cultures. Good and bad exist in any culture, but what makes a difference is how the judicial or law and order deals with those evils of society. After all, it’s a criminal case more than it’s a cultural practice. Also, any comparison involves more objective measures than not, and judicial systems are based and enforced on the very grounds.
[quote]
Enough was enough, created a movement that lead to their emancipation.
[/quote]
Abdulmalik Sahib:
Would your please explain your definition of emancipation! And please! we already know about beatings, honor killings, tortures, second marriages etc. etc and how wrong they are.
Explain the rudimentary steps we need to take inorder to achieve the goals of the movement.
[quote]
I do this as much as I can with the people I know.
[/quote]
I am sure that you do. One day, I hope to see you post a thread about how sick and angry your are of western media after they try to implicate Islam into some selfish or looney acts of terrorist(s). Quick example: Oak. City bombing.
BB...i donno whats too hard to understand in my post...like a broken record i am keep repeating myself.....and u r not getting what i am saying....
What i said is BB...when u use word "Muslim" or "Islam".....u shud be careful.....u shud think that aren't u doing the same thing???what west is doing???their excuse is their lack of knowledge about islam...and urs....???
And plzzzz i really am sorry if u thought ke i am lumping u wid Aanchal....Astaghfirullah....
and i mean it.....she is one of a kind....
And no u r not denouncing islam...u r just too much influenced by western media:)just don't pay too much attention to them when it comes to islam......coz they don't have knowledge ...u do have....
Hold on folks! what's the crux of issue in this discussion? Is it to discuss and find ways to curb the acts of violance against the most vulnerable and weak members of society or blast the irresponsible factors.
In my opinion, this crime brings a variety of issues, which are menacing our society, in context. From ever prevailing lawlessness to the evil deeds of honor killings and forced marriages. The society which dwells upon social injustice and where acts of reprisal are carried out in ruthless and henious manner. The country where judicial practices are scarce and one must hold a sourceful position in order to have any chance of protection under the umbrella of law.
I think that societal illnesses have taken away our ideology to become an impacting nation in the global arena. If you look at the bigger picture, we are a society in disarray and in serious need of major reforms. These reforms should be carried out in a revolutionary and swift fashion.
I suggest:
--Creation of a seperate law enforcement agency to investigate and apprehend people committing crimes against women.
--Introduction of death penalty against the ones who indulged themselves in honor killings.
--Creation of special courts to provide swift and decissive justice in the matters relating women.
--Provision of a safety-net against forced marriages.
--Elevation of the socio-economic status of women through the introduction of resourceful vocational and educational institutions.
--Massive ad camapign in the local Mass-Media to honor women or face grave consequences.
We are to become the nation that rises to the occasion, braces harmony and same treatment for all then we must act together hand-in-hand to contain these inhumane acts. We must engage ourselves in finding solutions to these problems, otherwise these incidents would further erode the very fabric of our society and recovery could become the task unattainable.
[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited May 03, 2000).]
Dear all. Thanks for discussing this issue and I am sorry that I got so upset yesterday. Maybe I am wrong to bring religion too much into it. I can see that the weight of opinion is against me there. I wish that more people would see, however, that I am not saying that this was a Muslim act.
Although maybe Roman is right that it is more culture than misinterpretation of religion. But I am so very used to people twisting Islam to keep women down.
I agree with you all that the Western media is incorrect in blaming this on the religion. However, my point is, if our own Pakistanis think and claim that this is part of the religion, then should we be surprised if the West also thinks that it is?
I do use whatever chances I have to tell people that the bad things in Pakistan are part of the culture, but not the religion. However, most people over here don't really care. They seem to think that if that's what people do, then what's the difference.
I just wish that we could eradicate this crap from our country so that women would stop suffering and so that the image of our culture and our religion could improve. Naik says that I should not care what Western media and the West says, but I do. And obviously all of you do care, or you would not have gotten so upset by my posts.
And also, I agree with Outlaw that this Western media thing is sidetracking from the real issue of abuse of women. His suggestions are great!
[This message has been edited by zaraatif (edited May 04, 2000).]
But I do agree with what you say and as a Pakistani I can empathize with your emotions and feelings and how our cultures and customs are portrayed in the West. The truth of the matter is that they way it might be portrayed doesn’t bother me a bit. If a few people are narrow-minded, we cannot blame the entire Western society and press for that. The press in the west is a profit making business and they print and show what sells. It is biased to the point of it being boring. Of course it doesn’t include every and all publications. I read NYTimes religiously, and their editorial write-ups are always of top-notch journalistic standards. Even they at times, without realizing, view issues very euro-centrically. In my opinion, we need to learn to live with that.
In terms of violence against women in Pakistan, it is a real issue and what makes it more complex is that those who are in power to do something about it, exploit the issue rather than work to find solutions to deal with it. Now the new CE is taking about harsher penalties, and stuff. That, in my opinion, is just another exploitation on women’s account. If he is really sincere about making things better, he will reform our educational institution and open up all sectors of our society to women.
I agree with Outlaw, and he has many useful suggestions.
Thank you for your understanding, NYA! :) I was starting to bend under the weight of all the criticism...
I just hope this stuff starts to change some day.
Zara