Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

[ajazali]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

Considering women go through menstural cycle and every month for certain days they are asked by their God to refrain from doing supreme form of worshipping by defaults adds to the idea spiritual weakeness.

So it is good piece of examle of feminist poetry?
another exmple,
rozay rakhnay kam zana'n dy
there are several other examples.
anyway, we have done it before several times here. So I know i alone cannot change this perception.

[QUOTE]
I don't live in Pakistan. never studied there, can't finish a book in Urdu to save my life, don't know what media says about Sufi poetry. However, I am a woman, an ex literature student, have studied plenty of feminist texts and the entire movement in itself, like to call myself a feminist. I can assure you, give me a Sufi text in an exam room condition and I would be able to answer how it is a pro-woman text. Literature is all about interpretation, there is technically no such thing is right or wrong literary interpretation.
[/QUOTE]

peer and mureed analogy is the key to understand the message from sufi poetry.
A piece of sufi poetry either revolves around the romanticism of some female character or symbolizes woman as mureed in front man peer.
Well, if you think that romanticism is the actual way to address the women grievances then its your choice what get from sufi poetry.

[Jolie]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

So it is good piece of examle of feminist poetry?

Is it supposed to be a quintessential feminist poetry? Of course not. The poetry has a very pro-woman feel to it and that's quite a significant aspect of it.

[QUOTE]
peer and mureed analogy is the key to understand the message from sufi poetry.
A piece of sufi poetry either revolves around the romanticism of some female character or symbolizes woman as mureed in front man peer.
Well, if you think that romanticism is the actual way to address the women grievances then its your choice what get from sufi poetry.
[/QUOTE]

Sufis were not social commentators. Other than women's grievances there were a lot of things that were wrong with the Subcontinent and lot of cultural practices that were against the belief system of the Sufis. However, they never explicitly launched an attack on the flawed people, way of life and traditions they witnessed around themselves. Unlike most of the Muslim ideological and political movements of today. More than advocating law based life, they emphasised on spirit based life. They gave women a voice in their writings and that itself was a unique and hugely sufficient device to break the societal norms of keeping women mute and anonymous.

[Jolie]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

M*y point is when someone is perceived as promoting idealism coupled with romanticism, how could that writer be able to convey facts of his/her era.*

I don't say Sufis didn't talk about problems of their era. What I believe is their poetry is an alternate source to history of that era. To achieve this, Sufis definitely exercised a balanced approach between romanticism and facts. Their writing might be full of metaphors, but this is acceptable norm in literature in turmoil times and one can not blame writers from such eras (like Zia era) to write abstract things.

I am struggling to understand what you mean by facts? Poets don't write history. Their peotry is not supposed be a journalistic inquiry and or a newsfeed. You must not read creative literature if you are intersted to read some historically correct factual information of the era you are interested to know more about. It seems you are under an impression that somehow romanticism means a total departure from commenting on the time you are living in. Lord Byron's Don Juan is a major literary piece from the Romantic era defining all the characteristics of romanticism. In his poetry he describes Turko-Greek war, takes sides. However, you must not read Don Juan if you are looking to read about 'facts' on Turko - Greek war yet you must know about the war before you read Don Juan because it makes up for the context of the later part of his book.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

I am struggling to understand what you mean by facts? Poets don't write history. Their peotry is not supposed be a journalistic inquiry and or a newsfeed. You must not read creative literature if you are intersted to read some historically correct factual information of the era you are interested to know more about. It seems you are under an impression that somehow romanticism means a total departure from commenting on the time you are living in. Lord Byron's Don Juan is a major literary piece from the Romantic era defining all the characteristics of romanticism. In his poetry he describes Turko-Greek war, takes sides. However, you must not read Don Juan if you are looking to read about 'facts' on Turko - Greek war yet you must know about the war before you read Don Juan because it makes up for the context of the later part of his book.

I do understand this point that poetry is subject to interpretations and thats why interpretations have kept this poetry alive after centuries. Sufis wrote on subjects which people can relate todate.

Some people may argue that sufi poetry became outdated as they emphasized on matters which were even not required to be highlighted in the era they lived. This argument is based on perception that sufi poetry follows escapism on relevant issue. I personally don't agree to this perception myself, but again there are people who think so.

[ajazali]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

Is it supposed to be a quintessential feminist poetry? Of course not. The poetry has a very pro-woman feel to it and that's quite a significant aspect of it.

Sufis were not social commentators. Other than women's grievances there were a lot of things that were wrong with the Subcontinent and lot of cultural practices that were against the belief system of the Sufis. However, they never explicitly launched an attack on the flawed people, way of life and traditions they witnessed around themselves. Unlike most of the Muslim ideological and political movements of today. More than advocating law based life, they emphasised on spirit based life. They gave women a voice in their writings and that itself was a unique and hugely sufficient device to break the societal norms of keeping women mute and anonymous.

In your first post you implied sufis romanticize things, in rest of posts you are implying sufis gave women a voice and went against social norms.

can you give some real example of type of sufi poetry you are talking about?

[Jolie]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

In your first post you implied sufis romanticize things, in rest of posts you are implying sufis gave women a voice and went against social norms.

can you give some real example of type of sufi poetry you are talking about?

I don't think there's any radical shift in my opinion through out this thread, perhaps after my initial post I decided to move my focus on commenting generally on poetry to the giving my interpretation of Sufi poetry. The discussion just evolved, thanks to the people who bothered replying to my posts :)

The examples of the sufi texed mentioned in this thread would be a good starting point.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

@ajazali

In your first post you implied sufis romanticize things, in rest of posts you are implying sufis gave women a voice and went against social norms.

can you give some real example of type of sufi poetry you are talking about?

some examples from Sufi poetry which prove that sufis recognized equality of women.

1. Shah Hussain

Ghoom charakhRa ghoom teri kattan wali jeewe, kattan wali jeewe naliyan wattan wali jeewe…

ABIDA PARVEEN - GHOOM CHARAKHRA - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DayNEX1f3Mg)

The working woman is still a taboo in sub-continent culture. In rural societies, she is an unpiad and unsung worker todate, who is not only occupied in house-hold works from dawn to dusk, but also involved in different stages of cultivation. Still, she is considered ‘bojh / burden’ on family. Sufis like Shah Hussain acknowledged hard-working women, praised them and prayed for them.

2. Shah Latif

Marvi, a poor girl from desert Thar, kidnapped by the ruler of Omar-kot ‘Omar Soomro’. All his efforts to make the girl accept him and his material offers went unsuccessful as the girl was committed to her land and poor people. Today, Marvi (a lady) is symbol of patriotism and courage in Sindh due to poetry of Shah Latif which forms fabric of Sindhi society. The character of Marvi is most favorite of Shah Latif. He does criticize his characters for their shortcomings in his poetry, but there is no such remarks about Marvi.
**
3. Waris Shah**

The lines from Amarta preetam conclude it very well that who was prominent feminist of Punjab:

Aj aakhan waaris shah noo kito.N qabra.N vicho.N bol!
Te aj kitab-e-ishq da koi agla varka phol! **

Ik roi si dhii punjab dii tuu likh-likh mare vain
Aj lakkha.N dheeyan rondian tainuu.N waaris shah noon kahan**

Uth darmandan diaa dardiiaa uth tak apna punjaab!
Aj bele laashaa.N vichiiaa.N te lahu dii bharii chenaab!
*
Today, I call Waris Shah, “Speak from your grave,”
And turn to the next page in your book of love,
Once, a daughter of Punjab cried and you wrote an entire saga,
Today, a million daughters cry out to you, Waris Shah,
Rise! O’ narrator of the grieving! Look at your Punjab,
Today, fields are lined with corpses, and blood fills the Chenab*

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

^ what is the context of this Amrita one?

[the_kaur]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

I think the reason of using women was to use as symbolism of oppressed of male-dominated society. poetry of any kind always has multiple interpretation anyway, that is why I always like well written prose to poetry :)

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

^ what is the context of this Amrita one?

partition and massacre in Punajb

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

I think the reason of using women was to use as symbolism of oppressed of male-dominated society. poetry of any kind always has multiple interpretation anyway, that is why I always like well written prose to poetry :)

but even scriptures were written in poetry style. So poetry got more acceptability than prose. Sufi poetry was / is more popular in those areas which are otherwise labelled as 'illiterate'. It is an achievement for Sufis to convey their message and make it part of fabric of such society through poetry.

[the_kaur]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

but even scriptures were written in poetry style. So poetry got more acceptability than prose. Sufi poetry was / is more popular in those areas which are otherwise labelled as 'illiterate'. It is an achievement for Sufis to convey their message and make it part of fabric of such society through poetry.

But I don't think poetry simplified it. Mahabharat has 1,00,000 shlokas, Ramayan has 24000. But the most I understood it, when I read it in prose. I believe prose it much better way of teaching and learning, how about parents teaching their children in poetry rather than prose?

But I think concern of this thread is different though.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

But I don't think poetry simplified it. Mahabharat has 1,00,000 shlokas, Ramayan has 24000. But the most I understood it, when I read it in prose. I believe prose it much better way of teaching and learning, how about parents teaching their children in poetry rather than prose?

But I think concern of this thread is different though.

I think there is reason for teaching children nursery rhymes. melody can easily be picked.

But as you say, the thread is about different issue.

How do you see depiction of females in Ramayan and MahaBharata? Is that a typical abla-nari (innocent and victimized woman) or something different? Did Bhakti movement (paraleel to sufi movement) brought some changes in that portrayal?

[the_kaur]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

I think there is reason for teaching children nursery rhymes. melody can easily be picked.

But as you say, the thread is about different issue.

How do you see depiction of females in Ramayan and MahaBharata? Is that a typical abla-nari (innocent and victimized woman) or something different? Did Bhakti movement (paraleel to sufi movement) brought some changes in that portrayal?

Nursery rhymes are more intended to make children learn the pronunciation.

Bhakti Movement was just re-emphasis in local dialect of the established religious doctrine, Hindu theology has both victim hero and vitimized heroine :)
The general development of women in India is due to Modern people like Tarabai Shinde, Kamladevi Chattopdhyay and most prominently, Mahatma Gandhi :)

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

A detailed article on the subject.

She without an S

Characterisation of ‘woman’ in Punjabi literature is unique in more than one ways. For instance, she is portrayed as the lover rather than the beloved – the ma’shooq of Persian ghazal; she is described as a member of the female collective – trinjan or aatan; she is shown in the dialectics of mother-daughter relationship and finally the poet entirely or frequently assumes the voice of a woman. Shah Hussain sings entirely in a woman’s voice; Bulleh Shah, Sachal Sarmast and Khwaja Farid frequently do this; Guru Nanak, Sultan Bahu and countless others resort to it occasionally.

Punjabi poetry shares this characteristic with Hindi and Sindhi poetry. I am told by my friends versed in Bengali, Tamil etc that all languages in South India have this feature. Its origins may lie in the distant past when South Asia was largely matriarchal. But in no other language, it is used by major classical poets as widely and significantly as in Punjabi.

According to Najam Hussain Syed, this characteristic has class connotations. That dervishes or malangs call each other Sahaily – a girl’s girlfriend – indicates that there exists a political/philosophical tradition to support Najam’s view.

Late Professor Asif Khan viewed it in terms of linguistics – a manifestation of mother as the keeper of mother tongue. This is borne out by the fact that the generation of women in Punjab now in their 80s are all veritable treasure houses of idioms and proverbs, tellers of tales and singers of songs.

  But something more is needed than these hypotheses to  study all the nuances of this feminine voice in Punjabi poetry. Shah  Hussain, being the most significant poet in this regard, may help  understand the phenomenon in its entirety. The story of Heer, the  quintessential Punjabi female, is used by all Punjabi classical poets  but the range of contexts Shah Hussain puts it in is as extensive as  comprehensive. His verses like Nee ma'ay mainoon Kherian di gal na aakkh  (Mother, do not talk to me of Kheras), Buray aan, buray aan way asseen  buray aan way loka (we are bad, bad, bad, oh people, we are bad) and  Chuhree haan darbar di (I am the despised cleaning woman of the court)  express themes of class, as well as of culture and history, explained through the feminine  experience. A comparison of his poetry with that of Mian Mohammed  Bakhsh, the last of the Punjabi poetic giants, clearly shows why Punjabi  poetic tradition is different from other literary traditions like the  Persian one as far as this feminine voice is concerned.

[ajazali]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

^ one word, romanticism. Sufi poetry has nothing to say beyond romanticism, as i said earlier.
Even if we agree with mashooq(woman) and aashiq(man) analogy, then it goes against the stance of proponents of equality that only man has the right to propose or love. While in Islam, if woman want to marry someone she can even propose through elders or parents, but that doesnt imply the dating and 'sair spattay'.

More importantly, practically, sufi followers are seen claiming that they are ‘true’ aashiq of their pir.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

^ one word, romanticism. Sufi poetry has nothing to say beyond romanticism, as i said earlier. Even if we agree with mashooq(woman) and aashiq(man) analogy, then it goes against the stance of proponents of equality that only man has the right to propose or love. While in Islam, if women want to marry someone she can even propose, but that doesnt imply the dating and 'sair spattay'.

More importantly, practically, sufi followers are seen claiming that they are ‘true’ aashiq of their pir.

If at all, sufi poetry was just for romanticism, why they faced so much opposition. After all, poets like Mir Taqi Mir (who are also famous for romantic poetry) lived the same period as of Bulleh Shah.

[ajazali]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

If at all, sufi poetry was just for romanticism, why they faced so much opposition. After all, poets like Mir Taqi Mir (who are also famous for romantic poetry) lived the same period as of Bulleh Shah.

romanticism + piri muridi

Actually all the poets are opposed by religious circle. you know they used word 'waiz' and criticized them in every other ghazal or nazam. Bulleh shah went to extreme by condemning religious circles and favoring secularism, but that does not negate the point of believe in female inferiority.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why Sufis conveyed their message through female characters?

romanticism + piri muridi

Actually all the poets are opposed by religious circle. you know they used word 'waiz' and criticized them in every other ghazal or nazam. Bulleh shah went to extreme by condemning religious circles and favoring secularism, but that does not negate the point of believe in female inferiority.

what kind of secularism Bulleh Shah promoted? respect for all faiths or rejection of all faiths?