Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Unity of Existence and Unity of Witness … These are not necessarily contradictory conditions … The correct way to understand the former is to understand it in terms of Causeless and Caused Existence … That Caused existence is an expression of Causeless Existence … Hence there is only One Existence. The way to understand the latter is to argue the Existence in what we see is real existence as part of Creation and God is Unseen and cannot be understood by us and is Existence unconnected to our own, which is true when looking at the Nature of Being from a temporal point of view.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

a little more elaboration with examples will be more helpful.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

^^yes, example for Causeless and Caused Existence?
Also please elaborate "looking at the Nature of Being from a temporal point of view".

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Humans are temporal beings when we project outward we see barriers, layers of separation ... God is not temporal, but is Manifest and Infinite ... Everything is encapsulated by Him ... Even time. We are not part of God, but we cannot exist outside God. These are tensions that betray our understandings and the best way to accept them is to acknowledge that they are different vantage points ... Looking at the same matter from two different angles ...

we are in contingent reality ... Where nothing is like God, in true Reality there is nothing except God.

This is also how we can understand the Attribute of Al-Haqq in a greater sense.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Coming back to the subject Iqbal is writing the piece out of yearning to be with Allah (SWT) ...

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Ok. Actions are free and that make sense for the day of judgment. Now, how to deal with problem of free actions and constant free will?
I think compatible predestination should be part of our belief. When we know what the problem is and we do not have distinct answer then why even take a side? Why not address the other part that is related to free action?
I am asking you this because over emphasis on constant free will and unity of being (whatever the way you understand it) is discouraging for believers. Because it is void of motivation to do good. Similarly, if we are part of creator then who will get punishment in hereafter?
If you say its a spiritual connection then what happens when creation do evil things? Is it like Divine connection is lost when a person acts evil?
I have more questions, will ask if could answer above.

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It it is a different axis of thought ... We cannot conflate our separation in this material world with our connection with Him in the spiritual sense. When any sense of unity is inferred it has to be taken in context with the aqeedah not the other way round ... so rest assured your understanding and mine is the same ... In the matter of nature of Divine Being and the nature of transient life ... As our own.
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I got what you mean. But another issue is a concept from hinduism says the objective of creation is do good and become part of divine ultimately. They too claim that the connection is spiritual one.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Peace bro ajazali

This is actually a field that requires systematic study ... Starting first with mantiq - logic ... Being able to detect argument structure, understanding and possibility. It requires the mathematics of unity and infinity. It needs to be analogised against axis theory, it needs us to establish the difference between belief and poetic structure, symbolism and literalism. You need to walk through the arguments as they develop from first principles ... I am hesitant to respond because I know another question will come ...

Simply because Hindus claim something - it does not make it false or anti-Islamic - we must return to our aqaid to realise the truth - it is too simplistic to raise the argument that since Hindus believe "x" therefore Muslims should not believe "x".

However from my knowledge of Hinduism -we do not believe as they do ...

Hindus believe in pantheism - that "everything is Divine" they also believe in "maya" - that everything is illusion and the only reality is the Godhead ... Neither of these are what Muslims say ... (Sufi Sunni Muslims - are blamed or credited with these things based on a few factors ... 1) The accusation of other Muslims without understanding, 2) Muslims trained in the Hellenistic sciences to combat the Greek philosophers used to encode such understandings to diffuse the counter-rhetoric.

Pantheism's mistake that is not found in Wahdat ul Wujud is that the latter does not lead to worship of many gods ... it is an intellectual necessity to conclude everything must have been in terms of Divine Conception eternally existent but unmanifest, (until- if that term has meaning in this context) The Manifest Created. Creation is also not an illusion - it is "real" but contingent on the Reality to ensure it remains real ... You will never see Sufis who maintain the Shari'ah with heretical traits ... you may see some people who claim to be Sufi doing Hindu like things and say heretical things ... Look at their level of adherence to Shari'ah and the Sunnah and you will quickly work out that they are not the Sufis that are spoken about and responsible for the golden chain of Tassuwwuf. The people who I am talking about pray more and more earnestly than others, they are nicer towards others too more than any of the groups.

The argument for Ihsan as a dimension of Islam as you asked earlier ... I'll explain another time inshaAllah. But in a nutshell it is about putting a genuineness in our worship and being with other people - it helps us get on with life without worrying about the mundane and provides the tools to overcome animosity, jealousy, greed, etc ... My belief is that when a person expresses the inward and outward Sunnah of RasoolAllah (SAW) in constancy then he has reached the ranks of the awliya.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

it appears you are trying to knock me out technically. I can understand if you dont want to discuss and would not consider you a looser but dont assume that i dont understand science. I am student of research on sytematic design of software objects. apart from linguistics, bring anything technical you want to bring. I shall respond in sha Allah. I am not master-of-all. I am saying so because i am clearly aware of the scope of this discussion.

[QUOTE]
Simply because Hindus claim something - it does not make it false or anti-Islamic - we must return to our aqaid to realise the truth - it is too simplistic to raise the argument that since Hindus believe "x" therefore Muslims should not believe "x".

However from my knowledge of Hinduism -we do not believe as they do ...

Hindus believe in pantheism - that "everything is Divine" they also believe in "maya" - that everything is illusion and the only reality is the Godhead ... Neither of these are what Muslims say ... (Sufi Sunni Muslims - are blamed or credited with these things based on a few factors ... 1) The accusation of other Muslims without understanding, 2) Muslims trained in the Hellenistic sciences to combat the Greek philosophers used to encode such understandings to diffuse the counter-rhetoric.

Pantheism's mistake that is not found in Wahdat ul Wujud is that the latter does not lead to worship of many gods ... it is an intellectual necessity to conclude everything must have been in terms of Divine Conception eternally existent but unmanifest, (until- if that term has meaning in this context) The Manifest Created. Creation is also not an illusion - it is "real" but contingent on the Reality to ensure it remains real ... You will never see Sufis who maintain the Shari'ah with heretical traits ... you may see some people who claim to be Sufi doing Hindu like things and say heretical things ... Look at their level of adherence to Shari'ah and the Sunnah and you will quickly work out that they are not the Sufis that are spoken about and responsible for the golden chain of Tassuwwuf. The people who I am talking about pray more and more earnestly than others, they are nicer towards others too more than any of the groups.
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you say its intellectual necessity but dont explain why it is necessary. That way, it could be an argument that Creator and and creation must be viewed separatly.
however, i got your point of difference between sufis follow Shari'a and sufis dont.

[QUOTE]
The argument for Ihsan as a dimension of Islam as you asked earlier ... I'll explain another time inshaAllah. But in a nutshell it is about putting a genuineness in our worship and being with other people - it helps us get on with life without worrying about the mundane and provides the tools to overcome animosity, jealousy, greed, etc ... My belief is that when a person expresses the inward and outward Sunnah of RasoolAllah (SAW) in constancy then he has reached the ranks of the awliya.
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ok, I wait.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Brother ajazali

What I meant earlier was that some questions would not be necessary to be asked if a step-by-step process was gained through study. I am not saying you are incapable of understanding, MashaAllah you have a very strong intellectual presence.

We must accept that there are certain tensions even in established Islamic theology. For example how would you reconcile Oneness with Infinity? In certain contexts Allah (SWT) is Ahad (Alone) and in other contexts we refer to Him as Infinite ... Does that make sense to you? On one level Allah (SWT) is Unchanging, yet we believe also that Creation took place and that Allah (SWT) was Khaliq with or without His Creation. These are the more important questions to resolve first. And these are relevant for non-Sufis as well as Sufis ... The only thing is that the traditional Sufis were also the one who were skilled in the Hellenistic Sciences and they formulated a navigation through these tensions ... Most others merely accepted these matters without thought. And for me both people are Muslim whether you choose to reason them out or accept them without pondering ... The requirement from aqeedah is merely to accept. The intellectual necessity comes from the formulae that invokes such things that we already know about Allah (SWT) ...

Specifically before we were Created, was it Known that we would be Created? If so, when was it Known (if that makes sense, because time itself needed to be created) ... If Allah is Unchanging as we believe ... It is necessary to believe the Conceptual existence of the creation is pre-eternal, whereas this differs from Allah (SWT) Who is (bi Dzhati) actually Pre-Eternal.

There is a du'a we have "O Allah, Be for me as You were for me, before I was" ... It highlights this very point.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Please bear with me. I would like to know what process could eliminate those questions. I m not asking you to prove something like existence of God but asking about a certain understanding that you consider part of Islam.

[Quote]

We must accept that there are certain tensions even in established Islamic theology. For example how would you reconcile Oneness with Infinity? In certain contexts Allah (SWT) is Ahad (Alone) and in other contexts we refer to Him as Infinite ... Does that make sense to you? On one level Allah (SWT) is Unchanging, yet we believe also that Creation took place and that Allah (SWT) was Khaliq with or without His Creation. These are the more important questions to resolve first. And these are relevant for non-Sufis as well as Sufis ... The only thing is that the traditional Sufis were also the one who were skilled in the Hellenistic Sciences and they formulated a navigation through these tensions ... Most others merely accepted these matters without thought. And for me both people are; Muslim whether you choose to reason them out or accept them without pondering ... The requirement from aqeedah is merely to accept. The intellectual necessity comes from the formulae that invokes such things that we already know about Allah (SWT) ...

Specifically before we were Created, was it Known that we would be Created? If so, when was it Known (if that makes sense, because time itself needed to be created) ... If Allah is Unchanging as we believe ... It is necessary to believe the Conceptual existence of the creation is pre-eternal, whereas this differs from Allah (SWT) Who is (bi Dzhati) actually Pre-Eternal.

There is a du'a we have "O Allah, Be for me as You were for me, before I was" ... It highlights this very point.
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I accept there are certain tensions and that is my point that if we know there certain tensions then how can we be that sure to take a sides? Either have a satisfying answer or simply accept as Allah knows best.

You give examlpes of oness and infinity, unlike unity of being, these conditions or atributes are not infered from different or randomly picked ideas. They are simply directly stated atributes. And, just because you can find some tensions in established theology doesn't mean you could compare them with your own one.
Secondly you may find oness and infinity incompatible if look at them with mathematics angle. Instead if you apply set theory to 1 and infinity, you find 1 as subset of set of natural numbers. I can argue more but this not the point we are supposed to discuss.

More importantly, with deen's point of view, oness is a negation of polytheism and infinity is creation cannot measure the Creator or His majesty.

Other question you asked could be the tensions but they are not as important to be answered as unity of being is.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Peace brother ajazali

I see we are verging to a uniform understanding ... In which case I shall keep the rest easy inshaAllah ... Unity of Being does not mean all things are God. I hope that is enough for you. The derivation stems from the concept that Being in an of itself is only expressed as Essence in The Being. Only Allah (SWT) is Self-Subsistent, Manifest.

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Re: Why Iqbal is craving in this shair?

Thank you psyah, nice discussing. :)