Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

Can anyone please provide a source on the fasting issue? :)

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

I've never heard any shia claim that either, however I have heard some shias claim stuff that clearly puts them outside the fold of Islam. A few years ago I saw the shia mushaira type thing (or majlis, whatever) on tv in Muharram, it was about Hazrat Ali, and the guy said something along the lines of "Nabi kis ne banna tha aur kaun ban gaya". I could hardly believe my ears, it was so shocking. In Pakistan, you also see countless examples of shirk in the form of "Ya Ali madad" and "Ya Hussein" slogans. The matam thing is not a really a problem, it pales in comparison to these bigger, much more serious problems that exist with some extreme shias (not the mainstream shias).

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

So now the whole sunni world is qaatil of Imam hussein. and people wonder how religious hatred is propagated.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

And thats where i would rather have a debate with Das riech, IconoClast, ALLAH KA Banda, Ibn-e-Sideeq, PSYAH, TLK and Others who might not agree with me but do have some common sense.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

i'll try to answer the points you have mentioned here, but if you have a question regarding anything i previously wrote just ask. its very hard to appreciate these general points unless you know about the beliefs, history and incidences im very casually refering to.

you wont because the ahle tashi (twelvers) dont believe in it, although other blasphemous beliefs are subsituted for it. eg what rizla heard.
i said the shia started out with this shirk belief. you can read about ibn saba, heres a snippet:

"After ‘Alī's assassination, ibn Saba is said to have taught that ‘Alī was not dead but alive and had never been killed, that a part of the Deity was hidden in him and that after a certain time he would return to fill the earth with justice. Until then the divine character of ‘Alī was to remain hidden in the Imams, who temporarily filled his place"

although that account is contested by them. so we need a current example which the nusairi shias (20% of syria) oblige, their shahada:

“I bear witness that there is no god except Haidar *,
and no screen covering him except Muhammad, the honest and trustworthy one,
*and there is no way to him except through Salmaan the all-powerful.” *

(nauzubillah)

edit: btw the rajah (reincarnation) part of the ibn saba statement is a belief held by twelvers today

now these are more actual shia (twelver) beliefs, they may or may not be present in the common shiite man:

Imamate is a divine station like Nabuwwat. This implies that Sunnis, who do not believe in Imamate, are unbelievers. According to their beliefs, Allah had chosen twelve men to success Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam). The Twelfth Imam however disappeared at the age of five. He is believed to be the awaited Mahdi.

** THE STATUS OF THE IMAMS*
The Imams possess more knowledge than the Ambiya (a.s). They are superior to the Ambiya and the entire creation. The Imams can bring the dead back to life. No knowledge of the heavens and the earth is hidden from them.

[quote]
Also, some hadith are disputed by the Shias.
[/quote]

understatement. whats worse is the shia (twelver) criteria for accepting hadiths. they criteria is if it fits in to their beliefs its good. they dont even have a concept of 'sahih'

[quote]
And all I've to say is that just because they are in Sahih Bukhari doesn't mean they are beyond reproach.
[/quote]

theres many many quran ayats they point blank refuse to accept aswell

[quote]
Only fanatic shias have problems with the Sahaba, most don't.
[/quote]

each individual can have his/her own personal beliefs but the shia religion (eg ahle tashi) is designed to be at odds with the sahaba ra, and something which you will hear very little of- they detest ahle sunnah (view all sunnis as nasibis, kaffirs)
dictionary the word 'apostate'

the basic twelver belief from which cursing comes from:

** VILIFICATION AND APOSTASY OF THE SAHABAH (R.A)*

The Sahabah were guilty of willfully distorting and corrupting the Deen of Muhammad (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam). They turned renegade after the demise of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam) except the immediate household of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam).

(nauzubillah)

[quote]
Lastly, no Shia ever tried to discredit the Quran.
[/quote]

you are joking right? you are probably making the mistake of giving the benefit of doubt and aligning them onto islamic beliefs without proper knowledge of their beliefs but only two schorlarly opinions exist among them (ahle tashi twelvers the most common group) 1 the quran is corrupt 2 the quran is in wrong order (corrupt)

shia (twelver) belief:

** THE INTERPOLATION OF THE NOBLE QURAN*

The Quran is incomplete and distorted in its present form. This tenet had been explicitly propounded by the classical scholars of Shiaism, but frugally denied by the contemporary scholars.

if any shia individual believes in the quran with the full respect the quranpak deserves than i would congratulate them. i hope they do but merely spoken words coming from a shia are not to be accepted due to the taqqiyah belief. for indepth comprehensive insight into taqqiyah see the gift2shias article

[quote]
What have you been drinking mate?
[/quote]
*

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

I have to agree with that. I remember Abdur Raheem Green once came for a talk at our uni, he mentioned the reason for not accepting Shia islam when converting was that they did not have a system like Isnad to verify hadith.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

We dont have concept of sahih but u do.... should i bother opening SAHIH MUSLIM or SAHIH BUKHARI and let u decide how sahih they r ?

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

Saying "YA Ali madad" may be considered shirk.

But saying "Ya Muhammad (pbuh)" or "YA RasoolAllah" is not shirk although many wahabis tend to argue that it is shirk

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

No it isn't shirk if you are sending salam to the Prophet pbuh. However if you invoke his help or make dua of some sort, that is definitely shirk.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

Wahabi believe that you should only ask Allah and no one else for help hence saying Ya Ali Madad or Ya Muhammad madad are both shirk in their eyes. Same goes with thanking, they believe you should only thank Allah for whatever you are given and no one else, but both among Shia and Sunni tend to send their Thanks to Hz. Ali as and Hz. Muhammad (PBUH)

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

invoking help is shirk? what is the justification?

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

That's quite easy, only Allah can help you. The Holy Prophet (pbuh), while his life is a source of guidance for us, cannot help us. He's not god.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

im sorry thats still not a justification. one doesnt have to be God to help. one should only have the capacity vested in him by God to help.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

No one has that capacity vested in him. Surely the most basic and important tenet of Islam is tawhid, the oneness of God. Common sense says that when you can say 'Ya Allah', why would you instead say 'Ya Muhammad'? Is he more powerful (nauzibillah)? When you start claiming that he has a special capacity vested in him by God to help, how is that any different from Hindus who claim that their idols are just a means of praying to one God? At the end of day, I think we should try and avoid whatever is doubtful or unclear, and for me the only thing that is shirk free without a shadow of doubt is calling on Allah for help.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

if you are in doubt then dont call it shirk because labelling someone mushrik is a big sin. for me, Muhammad(s) is not dead. He answers back when i send my salam and durood to him. that doesnt make him an idol. It makes him an intermediary between me and Allah. Would it be shirk if i ask a fellow living human being for help? no. Hence, even if Muhammad(s) cannot intercede since he's dead and gone then my asking him for help would only be ineffective and not SHIRK because I do not hold him to be All-powerful and all-knowing nor do i believe that he can help on his own without the power of Allah.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is dead, there is no doubt about that. He also has a special status, which means when we say our salaam, the angels convey it to him. It doesn't mean that we should pray to him or ask him for help, because even if you don't believe him to be All-powerful you are still praying to someone in a similar fashion to praying to Allah. Why would you want to risk shirk, it is the only unforgiveable sin. The people who visit mazars in Pakistan follow a similar logic. Praying only to Allah avoids all this confusion.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

pray? when did i say pray to him?

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

If you have, by any chance, an ounce of shame and honour in you, then you are asked to abandon the ancestral deceit and cite authentic source with full chain of narration of the allegation you have just leveled above.

FYI, Ali bin Abi Talib himself is said to have killed Ibn Saba during his life hence I assume you are referring to the ghosr of Ibn Saba.

[QUOTE]
although that account is contested by them. so we need a current example which the nusairi shias (20% of syria) oblige, their shahada:

“I bear witness that there is no god except Haidar *,
and no screen covering him except Muhammad, the honest and trustworthy one,
*and there is no way to him except through Salmaan the all-powerful.” *

(nauzubillah)
[/QUOTE]

Again, this shows the height of stupidity and ignorance existence within you, there is hell of a difference between Nuseries and Shias yet you have mixed up the both just in order to achieve your impure task of maligning the Shias.

[QUOTE]
edit: btw the rajah (reincarnation) part of the ibn saba statement is a belief held by twelvers today
[/QUOTE]

The first part has been refuted by me above, but FYI, Sahabi Abu Tufayl (ra) also believed in Rajah so you better pass your Fatwa of Kufr against once of your 'sweet' Sahaba.

[QUOTE]
*Imamate is a divine station like Nabuwwat.
[/QUOTE]

If you had ever bothered to a book of Muslims which is called Holy Quran (surah Baqra verse 124) you would have come to know that it was Allah who had granted Imamate to Abraham (as), so if you deem Shias Kafir for believing that Imamnate is a divine station like Nabuwat, then you first better pass your fatwa of Kufr against the said two exalted personalities.

[QUOTE]
This implies that Sunnis, who do not believe in Imamate, are unbelievers.
[/QUOTE]

You dont have to deduce conclusions on the basis of conjectures. You are not eligible enough to derive as to what is 'implied' by Shias! Btw, at least the station of Imamate is found in Quran while there is no such thing as Khilafat e Rashidah yet you deem the rejecters of the Khilafat of first two caliphs as Kufr, so you better come out of dreams.

[QUOTE]
** THE STATUS OF THE IMAMS*
The Imams possess more knowledge than the Ambiya (a.s). They are superior to the Ambiya and the entire creation. The Imams can bring the dead back to life. No knowledge of the heavens and the earth is hidden from them.
[/QUOTE]

Again you have lied in some of your statements, Shias believe that Holy Prophet (s) is the most exalted and superior personaility in this entire universe. As for bringing back to life, then you first need to answer how come Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani was capable of the same? His rank was obviously inferior to that of Ali bin Abi Talib (as)! If you have no objection with Shaykh Abdulqadir having that capability then only a Nasibi can have objection against Ali bin Abi Talib (as).

[QUOTE]
understatement. whats worse is the shia (twelver) criteria for accepting hadiths. they criteria is if it fits in to their beliefs its good. they dont even have a concept of 'sahih'
[/QUOTE]

Again a deception on your part, in short, Shia scholars have written a number of books on Ilm al Rijal.

[QUOTE]
theres many many quran ayats they point blank refuse to accept aswell

[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, Quran directs us to take witnesses at the time of divorce yet its you who reject the verse and deem it not necessary to take the witnesses.

[QUOTE]
the shia religion (eg ahle tashi) is designed to be at odds with the sahaba ra, and something which you will hear very little of- they detest ahle sunnah (view all sunnis as nasibis, kaffirs)
dictionary the word 'apostate'
[/QUOTE]

Shia believe is that if a Sahabi was pious and adherent of Prophet and his Ahlulbayt (as), we cannot even be comapred to shoe dust of such a Sahabi where as if a Sahabi on the contrary hated, abused, cursed, hurt or faught against Ahlulbayt (as) then dont expect us to respect such an individual !!

the basic twelver belief from which cursing comes from:

[QUOTE]
** VILIFICATION AND APOSTASY OF THE SAHABAH (R.A)*

The Sahabah were guilty of willfully distorting and corrupting the Deen of Muhammad (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam). They turned renegade after the demise of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam) except the immediate household of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam).

(nauzubillah)
[/QUOTE]

You hd better checked your own 'Sahih Bukhari' before typing 'nauzobillah' !
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 Hadith 578
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 Hadith 584
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 Hadith 585 = implies that some Sahaba turned renegade after the demise of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam).

shia (twelver) belief:

[QUOTE]
** THE INTERPOLATION OF THE NOBLE QURAN*

The Quran is incomplete and distorted in its present form. This tenet had been explicitly propounded by the classical scholars of Shiaism, but frugally denied by the contemporary scholars.

if any shia individual believes in the quran with the full respect the quranpak deserves than i would congratulate them. i hope they do but merely spoken words coming from a shia are not to be accepted due to the taqqiyah belief. for indepth comprehensive insight into taqqiyah see the gift2shias article
[/QUOTE]

Following is the list of Sahaba and Tabayeen whose testimonies are recorded in authentic Sunni works which clearly imply that they did not believe in the Quran we have today in our hand:

Ayesha
Hafsah
Umar
Ibn Umar
Uthman bin Affan
Aban bin Uthman
Ibn Abbas
Abu Musa al-Ash'ari
Ubai bin Ka`b
Abdullah Ibn Masud
Abu Muawyah
Urwah bin Zubair
Hasham bin Umro
Harun bin Musa
Zubair bin al Harees
Akramah
Abdullah
Yahyah bin Abu Bashir
Saeed bin Jubair
Ismail Makki
Qatadah
Hassan Basri
Ubaid bin Zuhaak
Mujahid

So you first better pass your fatwa of Kufr against these figures or maintain silence because you cannot practice double standards and have one rule for one group of people and another rule for the other!!*

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

Praying is not only in salah. Dua, asking for help is also a form of praying.

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Re: Why do Sunnis have a problem with Matam?

i see...then going by your definition when i ask my friend for help im making a dua to him?