Where is the so called Progress?

No, I am not going to quote some stupid newspaper article claiming how Pakistan has become an economic power and achieved this and that much balance and all…

I came to Pakistan after one and a half years, and quite frankly, the situation here is getting worse, and out of control.

‘Mehengai’ is at its worst right now. Look at the petrol prices. What in the world is the Government doing? Commodities like Chicken, Daal etc are beyond the reach of a common man in Pakistan.

Look at the law and order situation. I thought by now the Government would have curtailed all these religious parties who thrive on sectarian instability. But all they did was ban them on paper, and the militants still roam around free. The situation is so bad that if you try to go to a restaurant which has a western outlook, there are idiot mollahs waiting outside, to stop you from going in an boosting the American economy.

And yes, the general public hates what Pervaiz Musharraf is doing. He may have a devout following amongst educated and offshore Pakistan, but by no means he is popular in Pakistan. That recent self planned bomb ploy of his didnt work, and failed to make headlines around the world because of the capture of Saddam. Does this mean he has failed to get more aid from the US to counter terrorism? I am sure he will come up with a better plan to get some $$$$.

I am not surpised by your comments Spock..nobody I know is happy with the way things are going..life is becominng unbearable. The Quality of life is deterioating...and with the lota league around Pervaiz Musharraf..I doubt he realises how bad things are...

Lets elect benazir? she will take teh country dragging and kicking into the 1930s

Spock is on the mark here.

The paper statistics have a big disconnect with ground realities. Inflation is out of control. Fuel and Food prices have skyrocketed. Good housing is unaffordable for the common man. Infrastructure is creaking.

Despite PM's best efforts, he has let loose the same corrupt feudal vested interests that thrived under "democratic" dispensations.

Fraudia,

No one is calling for Benazir or Ganja, but remember that we still have Aftab Sherpao, Sheikh Rashid, Chaudhry bros, Faisal Saleh Hayat and the rest of the same crooks in the lota league.

The head crook is gone but the mid crooks are thriving under this so called benevolent dictatorship.

It's out of control.

I think there are a few issues here

internal vs. external focus..
as inportant as internal focus is, right now external focus is very important and even the items that are scoring high on the internal points are motivated by external concerns e.g. extremists.

the changes that numerous world bodies have acknowledged e.g. IMF have been positive, The impact of those to an average person's daily life is not going to be instant.. more later

^Very true, while people may think BB and NS stole on their own..they needed a lot of help and all of that help seems to be around Mush nowadays. Factually poverty is rising and the cost of living is increasing ...while I think Mush did what any sane elader would have done ..by siding with the yanks after 9-11, but Pakistanis are very emotional..and being called Bush's chamcha doesn't exactly win you any popularity contests.

Mush has been very lucky, but the chance to make a difference and keep a legacy is fast vanishing.

Fraudz: The accountability process is dead in the water, the de weaponisation process was a failure...the documentation drive stalled, reform of the CBR, WAPDA and other state run organisations is stuck. His political allies include some of the biggest Feudals and crony capitalists in Pakistan many of whom are big supporters of things like honour killings and karo kari. Lastly, rather than reach out to the PPP or even the PML-N he is determined to clinche a deal with the MMA....

Fraudia,

Don't forget that there are a lot of and I mean a lot of crooks amongst the thoudands of retired Generals and their corruption has only increased under PM. Not all bribery happens in the grade of a Prime Minister. There's a lot of dealings going on in the mid pay grade levels of administration which, thanks to PM has been staffed exclusively by retired Generals. There was a report out in 2002 where I think Dr.H.A.Rizvi was quoted as saying that under PM, the various Fauj related trusts have built a portfolio worth $600 million in one year!

Corruption in Pakistan is not exclusive of our fauj.

FYI.

Queries about ex-generals’ assets rejected

By our correspondent

ISLAMABAD: The Senate Secretariat has scrapped opposition senators’ questions seeking details of assets of late Gen Ziaul Haq, Gen Akhtar Abdur Rehman during the period 1977-1985, arguing they were of secret nature and could not be disclosed to public.

Likewise, another question regarding allotment of a plot in the Police Foundation, Islamabad to Gen Pervez Musharraf has not been accepted on the grounds that no question could be put against the president of Pakistan.

This is not for the first time that such questions particularly raised by Senator Farhatullah Babar have been turned down by the chairman Senate on the grounds of secrecy. Earlier, Babar had asked the defence minister to state whether the practice of asset declaration by the army officers before the central officers record office (GHQ) was still continuing or has been discontinued.

If the practice was continuing, then assets of Gen Zia during 1977 when he imposed military rule and in 1985 when elections were held be declared. Likewise, the government was also asked to give similar details about the assets of Gen Akthar Abdur Rehman during the same years. The defence minister was also asked to tell whether General Pervez Musharraf had obtained a plot for himself from the Police Foundation.

I mean some may call me extreme but i had in past suggested that anyone who has been remotely involved in pakistani politics and bureaucracy should be barred from politics, and so should thei freinds and family.

This so called "ruling class" as they call themselves are bloody parasites, I unfortunately happen to know a few of them and the egos, feeling of entitlement to get away with #2 kaam (illegal shortcuts) astounds me. Yes we may miss out on a few good people by barring them all, but their influence needs to be limited.

Just like emelio estavez proves that artistic talent is not inhereted..bhutto's sons and daughter. zia's sons, ayub's sons etc have proven that leadership ability is not either..but it seems like corruption is.

Fact of the matter is that our bureaucrats and politicians are..and have been above the law for decades, they need a rude awakening. unfortunately..with the political situation in pakistan, their rude awakening may create a power vaccum that will be filled by a worse forces..who may or may not be as corrupt but are inept and would be a liability externally for Pakistan

Re: Where is the so called Progress?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
No, I am not going to quote some stupid newspaper article claiming how Pakistan has become an economic power and achieved this and that much balance and all...

I came to Pakistan after one and a half years, and quite frankly, the situation here is getting worse, and out of control.

'Mehengai' is at its worst right now. Look at the petrol prices. What in the world is the Government doing? Commodities like Chicken, Daal etc are beyond the reach of a common man in Pakistan.

Look at the law and order situation. I thought by now the Government would have curtailed all these religious parties who thrive on sectarian instability. But all they did was ban them on paper, and the militants still roam around free. The situation is so bad that if you try to go to a restaurant which has a western outlook, there are idiot mollahs waiting outside, to stop you from going in an boosting the American economy.

And yes, the general public hates what Pervaiz Musharraf is doing. He may have a devout following amongst educated and offshore Pakistan, but by no means he is popular in Pakistan. That recent self planned bomb ploy of his didnt work, and failed to make headlines around the world because of the capture of Saddam. Does this mean he has failed to get more aid from the US to counter terrorism? I am sure he will come up with a better plan to get some $$$$.
[/QUOTE]

Your comments are quiet interesting, in one sentence your talk to Pakistan's economic failure or so I presume. But at the same time your comments are of "mehengai" or inflation. The root cause of inflation is an overstreched enomomy, where people have lots of money and they buy quiet a bit, therefore pushing up prices. So just by reading your comments regarding daal, chicken etx it seems that people in Pakistan in general seem to have more money. Then we get to the housing sector, which is still booming, although somewhat artificially, but nevertheless the demand for new houses in Pakistan is up. This translates into 40 other industries getting lots of orders, hence the common man has more places of employment. I can go on and on, about individual sectors, but all this means in Pakistan is experiencing a boom.

Then we get to your second paragraph in which you allude to mullah's in front of foreign restrauants. Although there are some problems within your comments as professors from Quaid-e-Azam University are also involved so its not just the religious "extremeist", nevertheless what this points to is that in Pakistan there is democracy,the people have a right to point out there views. I thought you being a big fan of Bhutto are a strong believer in this basic tenent of democracy. Our fight is not with those who voice there opinions in non violent ways, but the ones who bomb and kill innocent to enforce there opinion.

Then the third paragraph, your protraying that everyone in Pakistan hates Musharraf. Interesting Pakistani's have been known in particular Lahori's have been known to start there protests or atleast be highliy opiniated but we are not saying any mass demonstrations. Because the Masses support Musharraf, your probaby in the middle of hardline PPP supporters giving you a biased image.

Then you go on to allude to the bomb attack. This is really interesting. Has the mind of a Pakistani turned into a beggar is the question that popped into my head. I mean it seems that is all that we expect from our leaders that they be able to fill the biggest begging bowl possible. Or have you simply fallen into the trap of an indian newspaper story, but nevertheless this really goes to the heart of the problem of whats wrong with Pakistan. Conspiracy theories are ripe, men have transformed themselves into the old gossiping women. Rather then being productive and working to strengthen the country, we look for the interest of our petty political views, and in the process spread such consipracy theories which undermine us in the world.

Re: Where is the so called Progress?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Commodities like Chicken, Daal etc are beyond the reach of a common man in Pakistan.

[/QUOTE]

Does that mean i to show modesty now people cant say " DAAL roti chal rahi hai ".

Re: Where is the so called Progress?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

And yes, the general public hates what Pervaiz Musharraf is doing. He may have a devout following amongst educated and offshore Pakistan, but by no means he is popular in Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]

the answer to this right thea in your post. Why would the general public i.e. middle class and poor would like Musharaaf when they can't even buy flour due to "mehangai". To a "gereib" it don't matter what musharraf or mullah are doing they want food for themselves and kids and who ever provides them with he's their king.

Thank you for your replies guys...

Fraudia, my point here is not to revere Benazir, or Nawaz, for the same was happening in their tenures too. However, I didnt see the false sense of security back then. Now we have a handful of lotas, who are trying their best to please Musharraf and create a false atmosphere in the country.

5 Crore each day is being paid to security firms these days just for the presidents security. How will the progress come about.

Baadsha, I am not economist, but then again, neither are the majority of the Pakistanis getting sick and tired of the 'mehangai'. These so called foriegn reserves and IMF quotes hold no meaning to the starving people. And again, this conversation is not about Benazir or Bhutto. As far as I am concerned, they are dead issues. Oh, and the democracy right now? I wouldnt even consider it democracy, all I see are handpicked lotaz.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Thank you for your replies guys...

Baadsha, I am not economist, but then again, neither are the majority of the Pakistanis getting sick and tired of the 'mehangai'. These so called foriegn reserves and IMF quotes hold no meaning to the starving people. And again, this conversation is not about Benazir or Bhutto. As far as I am concerned, they are dead issues. Oh, and the democracy right now? I wouldnt even consider it democracy, all I see are handpicked lotaz.
[/QUOTE]

Certainly your point is well taken. That telling a starving person that the economy is getting better is a useless excersize. However, one cannot blame the present ecnomic whizz kids in pakistan for the mess of the past. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will pakistan's economy. I can once again start my mumbo jumbo, with all these economic figures etx, but it will be useless. Hence, I am just asking that a fair chance be given for these policies to show there results. And how the chinese took nearly 30 years to get to where they are, atleast give 10 years, and if the present policies are followed. I am sure results will be good.

Democracy and lotaz. hmmm... isn't democracy all ruled by bunch of lotaz, one can see that power lusting politicians will do anything to be in power. But unfortunately that is democracy, and here again patience is needed. Democracy is not born in a day, it takes many years.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *

Certainly your point is well taken. That telling a starving person that the economy is getting better is a useless excersize. However, one cannot blame the present ecnomic whizz kids in pakistan for the mess of the past. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will pakistan's economy. I can once again start my mumbo jumbo, with all these economic figures etx, but it will be useless. Hence, I am just asking that a fair chance be given for these policies to show there results. And how the chinese took nearly 30 years to get to where they are, atleast give 10 years, and if the present policies are followed. I am sure results will be good.

Democracy and lotaz. hmmm... isn't democracy all ruled by bunch of lotaz, one can see that power lusting politicians will do anything to be in power. But unfortunately that is democracy, and here again patience is needed. Democracy is not born in a day, it takes many years.
[/QUOTE]

Agree with badshah!
to rise the prices it takes very less time, but to recover from this and setting realistic prices and controlling the inflation will certainly take time, 1-2 years are simply not enough to clean the mess and start on good policies.

If this continues , results will be good inshallah but it will take time!

spock i did not want to get into a bb or nawaz match either but the point is that the mess once created takes longer to fix..we can nto expect teh govt to turn teh country into some paradise in a few years..Badsha has explained teh situation very well.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

5 Crore each day is being paid to security firms these days just for the presidents security. How will the progress come about.

And again, this conversation is not about Benazir or Bhutto. As far as I am concerned, they are dead issues. Oh, and the democracy right now? I wouldnt even consider it democracy, all I see are handpicked lotaz.
[/QUOTE]

n 5 crores are being paid to each member of the PPP patriots to change loyalty to keep the general secure in the parliament

what kind of a democracy is this?? where the right to amend the constitution lies with one person n not the parliament
Today the general tells us about NS n BBs corrupt govts......lets take a look at some members of their 'corrupt' govts.......interior minister Shujaat Hussain, Rao Sikandar Iqbal(minister durin BBs time n now the defence minister), Pervez Elahi(now CM) Faisal Saleh Hayat, important members of the PPP govt.
How exactly is this govt different from the previous ones if the players are the same. Zafarullah Jamali was some railway minister and had cases against him in the NAB n so did Faisal Saleh Hayat n the Chaudhry braadraan who had loans worth millions written off by the current government. NS n BB were punished but y not the people who caused corruption during their rule.

Overseas pakistanis get all excited by articles about Pakistan's economy in the western media. I did as well until recently wen i shifted to Pakistan. I dont see the effect of this booming economy on the lives of people. Sure, it takes time but with time things should improve, not become worse.

Re: Re: Where is the so called Progress?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *
...Then we get to the housing sector, which is still booming, although somewhat artificially, but nevertheless the demand for new houses in Pakistan is up. This translates into 40 other industries getting lots of orders, hence the common man has more places of employment. I can go on and on, about individual sectors, but all this means in Pakistan is experiencing a boom....
[/QUOTE]

Housing sector is booming? Says who? Just curious.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bhadsha: *
...

Democracy and lotaz. hmmm... isn't democracy all ruled by bunch of lotaz, one can see that power lusting politicians will do anything to be in power. But unfortunately that is democracy, and here again patience is needed. Democracy is not born in a day, it takes many years.
[/QUOTE]

What exactly has Musharraf changed in "Policies" that could make us "wait" for couple of years? The only change I see is whip this party, whoop that a$$, grab a Taliban n present it to US and get some bucks?

I knew all that "ehtasaab" was only a trailor (ad), there'd be no movie... and there isn't. I don't have much expectations from him, so far all the "chiefs" (n PMs) have disappointed me.