when they cant face the truth they do injustice and kick me from the channel!

Walaikum salam

Achtung:

I agree with you totally that constructive discussions yield better understanding of different idealogies as long as there are no emotions are involved and participants stay respective and logical.

As for the references, I am quoting some below but it may become a very lenghty message. If you can visit following site, you might get a better understanding:

http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/index.html

Reference material:

The Prophetic tradition: “I am the city of Knowledge and Ali is its gate.”

This tradition [88] alone should be sufficient to indicate the example that has to he followed after the Messenger of Allah (saw)
because the educated man ought to be followed.

[88]Mustadrak, al Hakim, vol 3 p 127
Tarikh, Ibn Kathir, vol 7 p 358

Allah - the Most High - said:

Say: “Are those who know and those who do not know alike?”
[Holy Quran 39:9]

He also said:

“Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What
then is the matter with you; how do you judge?” [Holy Quran 10:35]

History has recorded many facts telling us that Ali was the most knowledgeable man among all the Companions and they used to
consult him on every important matter, and we do not know of any event in which he declined to give his advice.

Abu Bakr said, "May Allah never put me in a predicament that Abu al-Hasan cannot solve. " And Umar said, “If it was not for
Ali, Umar would have perished.” [89]

[89]al Isti’ab, vol 3 p 39
Manaqib al Khawarizmi, p 48
al Riyadh al Nadirah, vol 2 p 194

And Ibn Abbas said, “My knowledge and the knowledge of the Companions of Muhammad(saw) is but a drop in seven seas if
compared with Ali’s knowledge.”

And this is what Imam Ali said about himself, “Ask me before you lose me. By Allah, if you ask me about anything that could
happen up to the Day of Judgement, I will tell you about it. Ask me about the Book of Allah, because by Allah there is no
[Qur’anic] verse that I do not know whether it was revealed during the night or the day, or whether it was revealed on a plain or
on a mountain.” [90]

[90]al Riyadh al-Nadirah, vol 2 p 198
Tarikh, Suyuti, p 124
al Itqan, Suyuti, vol 2 p 319
Fath al Bari, vol 8 p 485
Tadhib al Tadhib, vol 7 p 338

The Prophetic tradition of the House on the day of Warning.

The Prophet of Allah (saw) said, indicating Ali. This is my brother, my trustee and my deputy [caliph] after me, so listen to him
and obey him." [94]

[94]Tarikh, al Tabari, vol 2 p319
al Sirah al Halabiyah, vol 1 p 311
Shawahid al Tanzil, vol 1 p 371
Kanz al Ummal, vol 15 p 15
Tarikh, Ibn Asakir, vol 1 p 85
Tafsir, Ala al Din al Shafi’i, vol 3 p 371
The Life of Muhammad by Hasanyn Haykal, First Edition (Section on: And admonish your nearest, your kinsmen)

Salam,

   SOME COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS 

Astung you said that Prophet Mohd was a man, well I think we already know that!
You went on to say that HE WAS A MAN WITHOUT ANY SPECIAL "NOOR" EXALTING HIM TO A LEVEL HIGHER THEN ANY OTHER OTHER MAN. You also went on to deny the fact that the prophet was divinly governed.
If you stand behind these statements then please tell me that if the prophets WERE NOT DIVINLY GOVERNED THEN :

  1. HOW DID MOSES WALK ACROSS THE OCEAN?

  2. HOW DID JESUS CURE LEPORACY AND BLINDNESS?

  3. DO YOU DENY THE MARAJ UN NABEE INCIDENT INVOLVING OUR HOLY PROPHET'S TALK WITH GOD ALL MIGHTY?

  4. NOW TELL ME, DID HAZRAT ABU BAKER WALK ACROSS THE OCEAN, LIKE MOSES OR DID HE INDEED HAVE HUMAN LIMITATION LIKE I SAID????

5.TELL ME DID HAZRAT USMAN CURE BLINDNESS AND LEPORACY LIKE JESUS DID , WAS HE ALSO DIVINLY GOVERNED IN THAT SENSE????

6.DID HAZRAT USMAN TALK TO GOD LIKE PROPHET MOHD. (PBUH) OR DID HE TOO HAVE HUMAN LIMITATIONS WHEN IT CAME TO THAT??

Also on the topic of munafiqeens ,you said it was up to allah to judge who is right and who is wrong, not us.

THEN MY FRIEND YOU WENT ON TO CONTRADICT YOUR SELF AND KILLED YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT BY QUOTING THE QURAN:

O ye who believe! If ye fear Allah, He will grant you a Criterion (to JUDGE between RIGHT and WRONG), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded." (Al Anfal, 8:29)

Asalamualaikum,

Fatima:

First off can you please define what you mean by "divinely governed"? Do you simply mean that Allah is watching over them? Or do you mean that they are distinct from other men in their attributes? Or are you implying that they have "divine" characteristics?

When I stated that Prophet Muhammad "was a man", I didn't mean to merely make a distinction between his gender - that is obvious. I cited a number of Qur'anic verses which urge Muhammad to state: "I am only a man like you" (18:110, 41:6). Here Muhammad wasn't asked to disclose his gender, that was obvious to those around him, he was obviously a man - but it was to emphasize that he was a man just like any other men, no different, not exalted above them, but equal in status. Moses did not walk across the ocean, rather Allah "parted" the ocean in order to save Moses and his followers from harm. Read:

"Then We inspired Moses, saying: Smite the sea with thy staff. And it parted, and each part was as a mountain vast. Then brought We near the others to that place. And We saved Moses and those with him, every one; And We drowned the others." (26:63-66)

The "We" in the verse refers to Allah. Allah provides the miracle and saves the righteous, not Moses. All credit for this is due to Allah. Moses was merely a messenger and a man, like any other man. In terms of Jesus, read:

"When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic;" (5:110)

The words "My permission" are "repeated with each miracle to emphasize the fact that they arose, not out of the power or will of Jesus, but by the [permission] and will and power of Allah, who is supreme over Jesus as He is over all other mortals" (Abdullah Yusuf Ali's tafseer). Allah again provides the miracle, Jesus is Allah's messenger - a man like any other man (with the exception of his piety and love for the Creator).

So it is Allah who parted the ocean and it is Allah who cured leprosy and blindness. Allah is the only one capable of such miracles. The Prophets are limited by their humanity like any other humans, it is only when Allah intervenes to provide them with certain miraculous powers that we see what "appears to be" divine attributes. But in reality these attributes are all the work of Allah - and credit should be given to Him. I agree with you that the Caliph's were human and had human limitations.

When it comes to the issue of Miraj un Nabi, the incident is related in Hadith and absent from the Qur'an. The incident does not mean in any sense that the Prophet is more than human. His "humanity" is confirmed in the verses 41:6, 18:110, 17:94 and 25:7 (written out in my previous post) where he is asked to confirm to the people that he is "only a man, like [them]", no different. If Muhammad were different, he would cease to be human. Muhammad like us is a descendent of Adam, he is human - he did not have any powers, nor was he sinless. Angels and Allah are sinless, not mortal human beings.

You believe I've contradicted myself, through the use of the Qur'an, in particular you refer to the following verse and the statement I made which proceeds it:

1) The verse: "O ye who believe! If ye fear Allah, He will grant you a Criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded." (Al Anfal, 8:29)

2) And my statement: "Allah is the ultimate Judge and will decide what is "haq (right) and what is bathel (wrong)" in these matters."

I don't think these two statements contradict each other. Unless you are you saying that Allah is not the "ultimate Judge"? The Criterion mentioned in the verse 8:29 is the same as mentioned in 2:53 ("And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion") and 21:48 ("In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the Criterion"). The Criterion is believed by many to be the Scripture, the Qur'an, the Message. We can use the Qur'an to judge what is right and wrong - not who is right and wrong in their understanding of Islam. The latter is up to the purview of Allah, while the former is easily spelled out for the believer in the pages of the Qur'an - the Message of guidance and Criterion for believers.

My questions:

1) It is not disputed that Ali was a knowledgeable and capable man, this is an accepted fact. Accepted in the Hadith literature of both sects as Imranz has pointed out. But how does Ali's grasp of Islamic knowledge impinge or affect the Message of Islam, which was perfected by Allah in the Qur'an (5:3)?
2) You seem to contend that Muhammad was sinless. How can this be when Surah 80 of the Qur'an (He Frowned) discusses a lapse of judgment on the Prophet's part (as discussed in my previous post)? The Qur'an in Surah 80 seems to acknowledge that Muhammad was a man like any other, and although pious and inspired by Allah, he had the potential to make mistakes. Countless Surah's discuss the fact that Muhammad was merely a man like any other (41:5, 18:110)
3) It would seem from Imranz post that Ali is believed to have some type of powers unlike other men - he is capable of telling the future. He states: "By Allah, if you ask me about anything that could happen up to the Day of Judgement I will tell you about it..." It was my understanding that the future was only known by Allah.
4) Where is there evidence of an Imamate in the Qur'an? Specifically the Twelve Imams and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Why was not such an important event to come, given more attention in the Qur'an?
5) Why and how does a political event alter ones belief in the message of Islam? Even if I was convinced that Ali should have been first Caliph, I would be the same in my understanding of Islam - which comes from the teachings of the Qur'an. Why does it differ for Shia (and some Sunni) on this basis?
6) What is the purpose of matim and was it advocated or practiced by Muhammad or Ali? Where did it come from and is it a mandatory requirement for all Muslims to follow?

Finally Fatimah, please do not get emotional. This discussion is not meant to offend you or anyone else. When you use cap locks it seems as though you are yelling and upset. My comments and views aren't an attempt to threaten you or hurt you.

Achtung ;)

First of all, what I meant by Moses walking across the ocean was that god parted the ocean for him, will he do the same for you? So the point I was trying to make was that the prophets were not like you or me but above mankind. I think that you are smart enough to understand this so I see no need for further discussion on this matter.

ON THE TOPIC OF MATAM (BREAST BEATING)

The breast beating which is generally done by the shias, for the martyrs of the house of the holy prophrt, the ahlul bait is not a part of the shia faith. It is an active expression of the sorrow and grief for the holy ones. There is a similar conduct in the history of islam on the part of Owais Qarani who hurt himself breaking his own teeth in feeling for the Holy Prophet who suffered in Ohad. This is not only percieved my the muslim world but also recognized and regarded by the holy prophet himself. Thus though not a part of the religion, breast beating is still tolerated. The phenomenon behind the degree of feeling by one for another, is the degree or the extend of the individuals identifying with the personal interest of one another. The intensity of the feeling will be according to the intensity of the attachment. For instance when a man dies, the others will not feel as much as his sons or his nearest relatives would. If one weeps or mourns and behaves even violently over the loss of a loved one in their bereavement, the others do not condemn them but console and express their own sympathy. Similarly the shia attachment to the holy ones is closer than that of the others and the shias actually regard the holy ones as their spiritual parents. The same did the holy prophet declare: "I and Ali are the two fathers of this people."

In reference to grieving this was said by the Holy Prophet-- "Let them weep" he said and then added: "What comes from the heart and from the eye, that is from God and His mercy, but what comes from the hand and tongue, that is from Satan"

Also it is strongly discouraged in Islam to make big scenes in times of sadness, which is why women aren't encouraged to go to gravesites.

So, I don't know how it is acceptable in Islam to make such displays of breast beating. These are my thoughts based on my limited knowledge of Islam. Please explain. Thanks :)

Fatima...you are great...Well after reading your thread in this forum...my hand is up in the air praying for you and your family...you are great....after reading this small introduction of our beloved IMAM...(ya ali madad)...everything should be washed out...there should not be any question about the religion we follow....
Imam Ali is our First Imam. He is the cousin of the Holy Prophet and the husband of the Prophets's daugher. He is the True Successor after the Holy Prophet and is the leader and guide of the belivers and the father of all the Imams.

He was martyred on Friday in the arch of the Mosque al Kufa while praying. He was struck on the forehead with a poisoned sword by Abdul Rahman son of Muljam (the accursed) on the 19th of the Holy Month of Ramazan (Its the month when Muslems fas t). He died three days later on Monday, the 21st of Ramadan
40 AH, at the age of sixty three. His funeral and burial were conducted by his sons Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain.

Imam Ali (A.S.) was a noble personage of innumerable qualities and generous disposition. He was the first to testify Islam and had never worshipped idols. He is the only person to be born inside the Holy Kakbba. He never lost any battel which he commanded and never fled from the battlefield.

About one of his manifold qualities, the Holy Prophet declared:
"The best of all judges among you is Ali."

Imam Ali's unlimited knowledge was described by the Holy Prophet in these words: "I am the City of knowledge and Ali is it's Gate." This clearly shows that whosoever seeks knowledge from the Prophet must first pass through the gate. The gate is only open to those who would follow Imam Ali's teachings and
footsteps.

Imam Ali's relationship with Truth brought forth the Prophet's declaration of: "Ali is with the truth and the truthis with ali."

The learned and wise have well spoken; now you can recognize the fact for yourselves.

momin.

Bismihi Ta’la
Assalam o alaikum.

insha 'Allah we are all well.

I would suggest some reading on the topic of the classification and development of the Ahl al Sunna as well Shia school of thought in matters of legislation and ijtihad. Here are some

  1. Modern Political Islamic Thought, Hamid Enayat, Univ. of Texas, Austin Press

  2. The Role of Reason in Ijtihad, Murtadha Mutahhari. With some background to the two schools, http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/index.htm

  3. The Role of Ijtihad in Legislation, Murtadha Mutahhari, again with some background to the topic as well. http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/index.htm

While br. Achtung has cited 5:3 and the completion of religion, here is some interesting material to read, the formal designation of Ali as the successor to the noble Prophet (peace be upon him), at Ghadir Khumm,

  1. http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/2.html

This will refer to the hadith on Ali being the mawla of the believers as continued from the previous post,

  1. http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/3.html

and the authenticity of the chain of the tradition is testified to as follows,

  1. http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/4.html

and lastly on the Prophet, peace be upon him, offending the blind, here is some more reading material,

  1. http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/1.html

I would prefer to continue the discussion, one by one, for the topics mentioned.

Regards

– Ali Abbas
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited April 05, 1999).]

Dear AliAbbas,

I too would like to continue this discussion. I'd rather you present your thoughts on the matters though. I appreciate you doing research and providing links to internet sites. However, unfortunately (I like many others here on this forum I'm sure) don't have time to read and sift through various sites. If you could just perhaps, answer questions I posed, it would be appreciated. Fatima has already answered the question regarding Matam (your views on the matter would be appreciated as well). If you need elaboration on the questions, I'll be happy to oblige. Or if you have any questions for me - I'll try to answer them the best I can, from my limited understanding of Islam. Thanks in advance.

Achtung ;)