People have swallowed the idea that morality started with religion to such an extent that they cannot separate the two.
Man is a primate. All primates have innate morality. A moral sense is vitally important to the efficient running of any society or group. There are no amoral primate groups anywhere. The Mafia have morals, baboons have codes. There are differences between the various groups and their codes of morality but all primate groups have some morals and standards of behaviour. Religion is also very common but it is not universal and it did not cause the codes or the instinct to observe them. These are facts that need to be clearly stated. Morality does not require religion.
In Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union millions of people were brought up during the middle decades of the twentieth century in a state that was thoroughly atheist and many of the households and communities within those states were also atheist. There was no collapse of morality. You were not more likely to be robbed, raped, murdered or cheated in Leningrad than you were in Pakistan. Why? Why did people freed from the fear of divine retribution not suddenly start behaving like amoral animals?
Because we are animals. We are political animals, animals that need to live within societies and feel respected by them.
Religion is not the bulwark of morality any more than the cockerel crowing if the cause of the dawn or the virgin sacrifices are the cause of the volcano keeping quiet. This trick has been perpetrated on people for centuries and people continue to fall for it.
Sorry to correct you but not asking questions is ignorance For instance, Islam views ignorance as a particular and unique evil that can and should easily be dispelled: “Seek knowledge, even as far as China.”
And you are welcome.
Again you have same line of thought. do not question just follow, to me this is ignorance. God has given us a thinking and reasoning brain, nobody normal in this world can claim he do not think, when the thinking process starts, it comes with a package i.e. questions. When that happen you require reasons to satisfy yourself.
Seeking knowledge in every field eg. deen, Quran, Sunna, math, science, geography...everything. There is an Islamic quote, it goes something like this: "One should seek knowlege from the cradle to the grace" If Allah wanted us to seek knowlege only in deen it would've said so clearly in the Quran and Sunnah. Allah did not prohibit us from seeking knowledge of any kind.
your post # 18 and 19 are contradicting with each other. Please clarify wich is the one you really believe in.
Kindly explain with proper verses from Quran and contexts!
Knowedge of Deen is not exactly a branch of knowledge like for instance mathematics or physics ... It is all inclusive. to understand quranic commands, jurisdiction, guidance , etiquettes you need to learn different subjects. Let me explain
In order to understand Quran you need basic understanding of logic and use of analogy, without it, understanding the concept of Touheed (oneness of God) is rather difficult... but most of the people 99% dont even go there, they accept what they are told by thier family or common culture...
(just one example out of many : chap 10 verses 20-30)
Same way, if you want to understand the Quranic emphasis on utmost respect of parents you need to study phsychology. The human need of bonding, trust and respect in relashionship , how love and feelings affect childs growth and overall quality of life elevate in a caring family.( chap 46 v 14-16)
You need to learn mathematics, in order to understand and impliment complex calculation of iinheritance given in Quran (chap 4 v 1-14)
You need thorough understanding of economics in order to understand why quran put so much stress on 'circulattion of money' and despise 'hoarding of resources' (c 4 v 37-42, c2 v214-216)
The list is very long, I hope your question is answered
ps. I know you would be least bothered to read the reference quranic verses, keenly asked by you; it is quite understandable. As you may have asked them for the heck of it, and consider them waste of your precious time.
Sorry Code_Red you have shown your blind faith.
You cannot narrate a verse confirming the meanings of 'knowledge or seeking knowledge'.
You can find thousands of reasons to decorate a religious texts with different words but it proves nothing.
It,s Ok that you have already blamed me for asking a question.
Codey....
How logical is that that people ask me to believe first and then you will understand.
Please tell me how logical these things are and where do you derive its logic from;
God.
Angels
Jinns.
Satan.
Adam.
Creation of the universe.
Creation of the religion.
Divinity of the religions.
Heaven.
Hell.
Afterlife.
Torment of the grave.
So on and so forth.......
There is absolutely no logic in all these things but you "believe" in it.
^ It would have been better if you read what I said
I said logic and analogy to understand the concept of 'touheed'. Not those dozen other things you have mentioned.
Let me give you an example. Let put Islam aside and compare two other religions and their concept of God.
In Christainity the concept of Trinity ( Father son and holy Ghost ) is totally illogical for me. but the concept of God forming different shape and comming to earth is far more logical and acceptable for common sense.
Father, son, family etc it is a human charactristics. So it required very minimum thought process to atribute these qualities to God. i.e people thought God should have the qualities similar to human. A creater should be similar to its creation. Thus man applied inductive reasoning ( with his limited or no logic) on
God that he should be in the same patern as his 'one' creation.
This is just like saying as football is made by a man, thus man must be in the shape of football
But in hinduism, we see the conept is oposite. The God reincrinate in form of any of his creation (avators) from time to time. Which is more in line with common sense. As he is God he can do whatever he likes. As he is omnipotent, he becomes what he likes. This is deductive reasoning, which in line with 'one' quality of God
anjjan - yes I have blind faith in some people that they do not want to understand what is being told :p
You asked ..
I have replied in post # 26
but let me summarize it for you again.
I said Getting education is an obligation for each and every muslim, This is a common known fact enforced by many sayings and actions of prophet (pbuh)
Basic education means ability to read and write.
Knowledge of deen(Islam) is not a branch of knowledge, it is all inclusive
Knowledge of religion is a branch of knowledge.
Knowledge of Islam (religion) includes ways of prayers ,abulution, haram halal, manners, and basic commands and guidance. A muslim is required to acquire this knowledge too.
Getting education (acquiring knowledge ) is a prerequisite to understand quran and deen.
deen = way of life
religion = faith,set of command and ritual
Islam asks its followerer to acquire knowledge. It does not restict them to any type of knowledge, except the forbidden one like black magic, palmisrty, future telling and stuff like that.
So I must blindly accept whatever you are dictating on behalf of the Prophet, Quran and Allah.
You are only telling us what means what but cannot say what is written in Quran.
At least a single verse from Quran you could provide which says that the education which is must for all believers includes all knowledge, that is mathematics, science etc.
If my information is correct, the taliban regime in Afghanistan had declared that all kind of knowledge relating to modern science was satanic., and Quran was the only source of knowledge.
God.AngelsJinns.Satan.
Once, an atheist teacher said to his disciples, "only what you see really exists. They
answered, 'yes.' You notice the tablet, the pen, the notebook and the chair? All of them
are visible and touchable, aren't they?' 'Yes,' They replied. Then he said, do you see
God? They replied, no. hence, God doesn’t exist. The students were perplexed, because they believed in the existence of Allah by heart. Meanwhile, Allah disclosed the falsehood of these teachers at the hands of one of his disciples. A student after having permission asked, do you understand what the teacher has said, they said, yes. Ok, do you see the teacher now? Yes, they replied. Does the teacher have a mind? 'Yes,' they answered. 'Do you see his mind?' They said, 'No,' he said, following the teacher method i.e., "Only what we see does exist." Our teacher has no mind because it is invisible.
Adam.
I would ask the same question to you, tell me how was your father born and his ancestors and trace back, repeat it and get me the answer.
Creation of the universe.
The following is also another useful discourse: you assume that Allah exists
depending totally on the law of casual influence which states that every thing made or created should have a maker or a creator. Likewise, the textile leads to the weaver, the painting leads to the painter, and the statue leads to the sculptor. Following the same law the universe leads to the Omnipotent God. We, then, believe in this Creator, but we might follow the same law and ask, who creates the Creator? Who created Allah Whom you talked about? Does your evidence and the law of casual influence not lead to such a result? To refute this false assumption, we can say that it is incorrect analogy, this is because you first acknowledge that Allah is the Creator then you ask about the creator of Allah. How can you adopt Him as a creator and created at the same time.Creation of the religion.
Heaven.
Hell.
Afterlife.
Torment of the grave.
So on and so forth.......
There is absolutely no logic in all these things but you "believe" in it.
BELIEVE is the key word not logic.
Read the below Question and answer one by one, Light bearer, before I could come into the fold of Islam continuously the above questions were the ones which kept torturing
The deputy: in what your Lord was born? Abu Hanifa: Allah is existent before dates, times or ages (His existence has no limit).
The deputy: we want you to give us examples from our tangible reality? Abu Hanifa: what is before the (number) four?
The deputy: Three Abu Hanifa: What is before the three?
The deputy: Two. Abu Hanifa: what is before the two?
The deputy: one. Abu Hanifa: what is before the one?
The deputy: Nothing. Abu Hanifa: If the statistical one has nothing before it, so, what about the Truthful
One, Allah. He is Ever-Lasting and His existence has not limit?
The deputy: in which direction your Lord is? Abu Hanifa: If you bring a lamp in a dark place, in which direction the light goes?
The deputy: in all directions. Abu Hanifa: if this is the case of the artificial light, so what about the Light of the
heavens and the earth? The deputy: Mention something about the identify (self) of your Lord? Is it solid like
the steel or liquid like the water or gaseous like smoke and
evaporation? Abu Hanifa: Did you sit beside a person who is in death bed?
The deputy: yes Abu Hanifa: Did he ever speak with you after he died?
The deputy: certainly not Abu Hanifa: before the death, he was speaking and was also moving, but after death
he became immovable and frozen. Who changed him from one state
to another?
The deputy: this is because his soul was taken from his body. Abu Hanifa: was his soul taken?
The deputy: yes Abu Hanifa: describe this soul for me. Is it solid like steel or liquid like the water or
gaseous like smoke and evaporation?
The deputy: we do not know anything about it. Abu Hanifa: if the soul which is created cannot be described, do you want me to
describe the Divine Identity for you?
The deputy: in which place does your Lord exist? Abu Hanifa: if you bring a vessel filled with a fresh milk, does this milk contain butter?
The deputy: yes Abu Hanifa: in which place the butter is in the milk?
The deputy: it has no particular place, but it is spread in all the milk. Abu Hanifa: if the created thing, the butter, has not a particular place, do you want to
make the Divine Identity to be restricted to one place? This is an
astonishing thing.
The deputy: if things are destined before the creation of the Universe, then what is
the position of your Lord? Abu Hanifa: He decrees certain things. He raised some people and put down others.
The deputy: if entering the Paradise has no beginning, how there is no end for it,
namely, its people are doomed forever. Abu Hanifa: Statistical numbers have neither beginning nor end
The deputy: how will we eat in Paradise, and neither urinate nor excrete? Abu Hanifa: you, every creature and me stayed in our mother’s womb nine months.
We were nourished from the blood of our mothers but did not urinate
nor excrete.
The deputy: how it is possible that the bounties of the Paradise are increased by
eating and spending them and that they have no end nor expiration? Abu Hanifa: the more the knowledge is taught, the more increasing it will be.
Once a Bedouin asked Abi Ja’far Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Al-Hasain (may Allah be
pleased with him), ‘Did you see your Lord when you worshipped Him?, ‘Abi Ja’far
said, ‘It is illogical to worship what I do not see.’. The Bedouin, ‘How did you see
Him?’, Abi Ja’far said, ‘ He cannot be seen with very eyes, but the hearts do that
through faith. He cannot be realized by senses, nor does He resemble people. He is known by His signs and marks and He is Just. This is the Lord, there is no
God but He. ‘The Bedouin said, ‘Allah knows best where to place His mission”
anjan - Do you know what was the very first comand at the start of revelation of Quran to Muhammad (pbuh) ??? very first verse at the start of revelation of Quran ??
I said logic and analogy to understand the concept of 'touheed'. Not those dozen other things you have mentioned.
Let me give you an example. Let put Islam aside and compare two other religions and their concept of God.
In Christainity the concept of Trinity ( Father son and holy Ghost ) is totally illogical for me. but the concept of God forming different shape and comming to earth is far more logical and acceptable for common sense.
Father, son, family etc it is a human charactristics. So it required very minimum thought process to atribute these qualities to God. i.e people thought God should have the qualities similar to human. A creater should be similar to its creation. Thus man applied inductive reasoning ( with his limited or no logic) on
God that he should be in the same patern as his 'one' creation.
This is just like saying as football is made by a man, thus man must be in the shape of football
But in hinduism, we see the conept is oposite. The God reincrinate in form of any of his creation (avators) from time to time. Which is more in line with common sense. As he is God he can do whatever he likes. As he is omnipotent, he becomes what he likes. This is deductive reasoning, which in line with 'one' quality of God
The bold and underlined is mine.
When God can do everything then what is there to stop Him from doing anything which you posted in the rest of your post.
^ so shoot
( edit : for anjan )
Ok i make it easier for you, just ask anyone here what were the very first few verse of holy quran revealed on Porphet Muhammad (pbuh), I want you to paste the translation of these verses here for me ? ( it is not long, hardly few lines ) would you be kind enough to do this little favor to me ?
I want you to do this for me because:-
I sincerely do not want to dictate anything on behalf of prophet or quran
so I want you to provide me the reference from any source.
2 I sincerely want to answer your latest question, which is ..
I hope you reciprocate the same level of sincerity in your pusuit of knowledge
Once, an atheist teacher said to his disciples, "only what you see really exists. They
answered, 'yes.' You notice the tablet, the pen, the notebook and the chair? All of them
are visible and touchable, aren't they?' 'Yes,' They replied. Then he said, do you see
God? They replied, no. hence, God doesn’t exist. The students were perplexed, because they believed in the existence of Allah by heart. Meanwhile, Allah disclosed the falsehood of these teachers at the hands of one of his disciples. A student after having permission asked, do you understand what the teacher has said, they said, yes. Ok, do you see the teacher now? Yes, they replied. Does the teacher have a mind? 'Yes,' they answered. 'Do you see his mind?' They said, 'No,' he said, following the teacher method i.e., "Only what we see does exist." Our teacher has no mind because it is invisible.
Be reasonable man, you can always do the post mortem and confirm it if the brain is there or not. Meaning there is a way of confirming it.
Where did I say that I know the answer, you claim it so you prove it. When I say prove, it means prove, it does not mean believe.
Again you are saying yourself when everything requires a creator is the end of story. What you are giving is plausible theory not a proof. Nobody can. Even if I want to I cannot give you a proof neither can you. Again Its A Belief.
Read the below Question and answer one by one, Light bearer, before I could come into the fold of Islam continuously the above questions were the ones which kept torturing
The deputy: in what your Lord was born?
Abu Hanifa: Allah is existent before dates, times or ages (His existence has no limit).
The deputy: we want you to give us examples from our tangible reality?
Abu Hanifa: what is before the (number) four?
The deputy: Three
Abu Hanifa: What is before the three?
The deputy: Two.
Abu Hanifa: what is before the two?
The deputy: one.
Abu Hanifa: what is before the one?
The deputy: Nothing.
Abu Hanifa: If the statistical one has nothing before it, so, what about the Truthful
One, Allah. He is Ever-Lasting and His existence has not limit?
The deputy: in which direction your Lord is?
Abu Hanifa: If you bring a lamp in a dark place, in which direction the light goes?
The deputy: in all directions.
Abu Hanifa: if this is the case of the artificial light, so what about the Light of the
heavens and the earth?
The deputy: Mention something about the identify (self) of your Lord? Is it solid like
the steel or liquid like the water or gaseous like smoke and
evaporation?
Abu Hanifa: Did you sit beside a person who is in death bed?
The deputy: yes
Abu Hanifa: Did he ever speak with you after he died?
The deputy: certainly not
Abu Hanifa: before the death, he was speaking and was also moving, but after death
he became immovable and frozen. Who changed him from one state
to another?
The deputy: this is because his soul was taken from his body.
Abu Hanifa: was his soul taken?
The deputy: yes
Abu Hanifa: describe this soul for me. Is it solid like steel or liquid like the water or
gaseous like smoke and evaporation?
The deputy: we do not know anything about it.
Abu Hanifa: if the soul which is created cannot be described, do you want me to
describe the Divine Identity for you?
The deputy: in which place does your Lord exist?
Abu Hanifa: if you bring a vessel filled with a fresh milk, does this milk contain butter?
The deputy: yes
Abu Hanifa: in which place the butter is in the milk?
The deputy: it has no particular place, but it is spread in all the milk.
Abu Hanifa: if the created thing, the butter, has not a particular place, do you want to
make the Divine Identity to be restricted to one place? This is an
astonishing thing.
The deputy: if things are destined before the creation of the Universe, then what is
the position of your Lord?
Abu Hanifa: He decrees certain things. He raised some people and put down others.
The deputy: if entering the Paradise has no beginning, how there is no end for it,
namely, its people are doomed forever.
Abu Hanifa: Statistical numbers have neither beginning nor end
The deputy: how will we eat in Paradise, and neither urinate nor excrete?Abu Hanifa: you, every creature and me stayed in our mother’s womb nine months.
We were nourished from the blood of our mothers but did not urinate
nor excrete.
The deputy: how it is possible that the bounties of the Paradise are increased by
eating and spending them and that they have no end nor expiration?
Abu Hanifa: the more the knowledge is taught, the more increasing it will be.
Once a Bedouin asked Abi Ja’far Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Al-Hasain (may Allah be
pleased with him), ‘Did you see your Lord when you worshipped Him?, ‘Abi Ja’far
said, ‘It is illogical to worship what I do not see.’. The Bedouin, ‘How did you see
Him?’, Abi Ja’far said, ‘ He cannot be seen with very eyes, but the hearts do that
through faith. He cannot be realized by senses, nor does He resemble people.
He is known by His signs and marks and He is Just. This is the Lord, there is no
God but He. ‘The Bedouin said, ‘Allah knows best where to place His mission”
As I said earlier in some other thread last post "you require faith for the things which are unexplainable, which cannot be prooved otherwise its not faith its reality and explanable, if you have explaination for everything then; Do You Really Require Faith? answer is NO.
Where did I say that I know the answer, you claim it so you prove it. When I say prove, it means prove, it does not mean believe.
Again you are saying yourself when everything requires a creator is the end of story. What you are giving is plausible theory not a proof. Nobody can. Even if I want to I cannot give you a proof neither can you. Again Its A Belief.
As I said earlier in some other thread last post "you require faith for the things which are unexplainable, which cannot be prooved otherwise its not faith its reality and explanable, if you have explaination for everything then;
Do You Really Require Faith? answer is NO.
So now tell it's your faith or physical proof.
BELIEVE or FAITH is the key word not logic.
You contradict yourself go see ur preivous posts with regard to above line
