[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Nadia, this is all feel-good wishful thinking. What Muslims did centuries ago, is just that. What needs to be discussed is what they will do in today's age. Until 1967, Jews were not allowed to worship on the Western Wall (it was part of Jordan back then). When we are so untrusting of the western governments, why are we so optimistic of an Islamic form of government? The fact is that those governments failed because they delivered zilch to their subjects.
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Interesting. Since when did british-installed monarchies become an islamic form of government?
Well, Rhia, then look at the Iranian example. Jews have been persecuted under the theocracy, and it was not installed by the British. For your information, Jordan calls itself Hashmite Republic, and lays a direct claim on the Islamic holiest places, including Mecca and Madina. The Hashmite lineage is way older than the British colonial period. Hashmites were studying astronomy when the Brits were still climbing trees.
Ppl we can debate all day, but the truth of the matter is that an Islam will peak once again and some form of a state will come into existance, just by the fact that the Prophet (PBUH) said so. How and when it will form?? Only Allah knows but rest assured that it will.
ChannMahi, >>The muslims be free to convert to other religions then in such a state, correct?<<
Yes.
Regarding the tax query - sorry, i really am not certain how it would be reduced. i don't know the nitty gritty details of the tax collecting system. If i have time, i can try to look into this a bit more.
The fundamental point i am trying to getting across is - in such an Islamic society, the taxes collected from nonMuslims would go towards upkeeping of their places of worship. i think that is fair. It is not a tax of discrimination, i.e., a monetary penalty for not being Muslim. i think that's the wrong angle to adopt to understand that issue.
Sorry. Yes i was being defensive. i apologize.
i think i am just tired of having to answer these types of questions (both on Gupshup and in real life) - so many misconceptions. i'm not a scholar on Islam, all i can present is what i know - and that invariably is tinted by my own errors, biases and cultural upbringing. Just as how i TRY (not always succeed) in teaching myself the significance that festivities such as Easter, etc., possess in Christianity - i wish that other individuals would also take the time to educate themselves a little more about Islam. Maybe it would make the process of understanding cultural differences a little less challenging, for all involved.
Anyways, sorry for being defensive.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Well, Rhia, then look at the Iranian example. Jews have been persecuted under the theocracy, and it was not installed by the British. For your information, Jordan calls itself Hashmite Republic, and lays a direct claim on the Islamic holiest places, including Mecca and Madina. The Hashmite lineage is way older than the British colonial period. Hashmites were studying astronomy when the Brits were still climbing trees.
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You dodge the question very well. What Jordon calls itself or not isn't the issue. The monarchs were picked precisely with the 'Hashemite' label to appease the gulliable masses. It does not mean the government became Islamic. The British were and are very good at this game (the US are bad at it just as equally, they should get some tips).
As for the Iranians, I suppose a representation in the Majlis (parliment) which is enshrined in the constitution and recognition of the right to freely practise their religion is a persecution of the Iranian Jews?!! Iran has specific represntation for Jews, Assyrians, Chaldean Christians, Zoroastarians and other Islamic fiqhs in their parliment as per their written constitution. Is there any other constitution in any country that has the same and preaches what they practise?
Rhia, its all a hogwash. I have many Iranian friends of Jewish ancestry. The most common accusation (and this is despite the freedom and the representation that you talk about) that they face is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists (and that is also an official position, believe it or not). Their freedom is always doubled with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist State and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death (under the Iranian Constitution). Jews applying for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi (and we had a discussion about that some while ago), with the restrictions imposed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.
You need to get your news from the people who have been affected. In NYC, there's a large Iranian Jewish community on Long Island. They are waiting to return to Iran as soon as the Mullahs disappear. Iranian Jews are the oldest of any Jews.
Are you somehow idealizing the Iranian experience?
One more thing. Why do you have to blame the British for what is going on today in the Islamic world? Doesnt the blame lies some place else?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
....
One more thing. Why do you have to blame the British for what is going on today in the Islamic world? Doesnt the blame lies some place else?
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Wherever it does, British holds major stake in the blame.
Changez… for how many generations do we need to hear the same mantra? It must be so comforting to do everything wrong and in the end blame the Brits. I like that.
^ Sweeping generalizations will get no one no where. I don't think anyone is blaming the brits for all our faults, but at the same time thier habd in starting all this cannot be denied either.
America was a British Colony too. I don’t hear any complaints by the Americans about the Brits. I wonder why is that. Caz Americans like to take control and don’t waste time playing the blame game. Others should learn from the Americans.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Rhia, its all a hogwash. I have many Iranian friends of Jewish ancestry. The most common accusation (and this is despite the freedom and the representation that you talk about) that they face is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists (and that is also an official position, believe it or not). Their freedom is always doubled with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist State and with "imperialistic America" — both such activities are punishable by death (under the Iranian Constitution). Jews applying for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi (and we had a discussion about that some while ago), with the restrictions imposed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.
You need to get your news from the people who have been affected. In NYC, there's a large Iranian Jewish community on Long Island. They are waiting to return to Iran as soon as the Mullahs disappear. Iranian Jews are the oldest of any Jews.
Are you somehow idealizing the Iranian experience?
One more thing. Why do you have to blame the British for what is going on today in the Islamic world? Doesnt the blame lies some place else?
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No I am not idealising. Indeed I hope I am not. I am trying to state facts. From your anecdotal view, I am assuming that many of the Iranian Jews whom you know or have spoken to have never been back to Iran or have tried going back since 1979? There are large numbers of expatriate Shia, Sunni, whatnot Iranians who have not returned back to Iran since they left. Whatever their reasons for not going back, fear of something they are not familiar with for one thing, you can’t chalk it up to official state persecution. So the fact a large numbers of Iranian Jews have not returned it does not mean they are actively being persecuted or being discouraged even from returning. Another reason could be that once anyone is in the US, it can be hard to want to leave. As for Zionist collusion accusations well that position is quite easy to understand in current times with the example of compulsory registration racial profiling etc if you are happen to be a Muslim in the US. So that’s no biggie. For purposes of security a country can do what it deems fit in its best interest. Again that does not at all prove there is an ‘official persecution’ policy of specifically targeting Jews just there is none in the US against Muslims despite the fact there are many many affected Muslims. In fact, some time ago when there were strong tensions between Israel and Iran (I can’t remember what the event was) President Khatami and Ayatollah Khamenai both went out of their ways to very publicly announce that Iranian Jews cannot be targeted for any reason and they are as much part of Iranian society as anyone else. About the ‘dhimmi’ I think you are confusing Iran with SA or some other country.
Lastly, I have not blamed the British for the failures of “Muslim States”. If I have, please show me where.
America was a British Colony too. I don’t hear any complaints by the Americans about the Brits. I wonder why is that. Caz Americans like to take control and don’t waste time playing the blame game. Others should learn from the Americans.
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America is a different case. Its been what 226 years since they emerged on the map, plus they had the same Judeo-Christian outlook as thier rulers. Also white caucasian outsiders instead of Native Americans took control of the affairs which was supported in whole or in part by the other involved Caucasians. But America and Americans also faced problems and went through a phase of struggle before they became great. None of the above are excuses for our backwardness just a plea for time.
with regards to Iraq, it's only Iraqis not Jay Garner, who should determine what's an Islamic state.
If the Shiite's and the Sunnis have differences, let them find a way of reconciliation.. afterall the MMA in Pakistan found a way to come together on one political platform.. i'm sure Iraqi politicians can do the same provided there are no foreign (Iran, Saudi Arabia or USA/UK) meddling in their affairs.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
with regards to Iraq, it's only Iraqis not Jay Garner, who should determine what's an Islamic state.
If the Shiite's and the Sunnis have differences, let them find a way of reconciliation.. afterall the MMA in Pakistan found a way to come together on one political platform.. i'm sure Iraqi politicians can do the same provided there are no foreign (Iran, Saudi Arabia or USA/UK) meddling in their affairs.
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Sorry PA, if there was no meddling by foreign parties then Saddam would still be around.
ahh you're chosing to take only recent pages out of your history books.. had there been no meddling by foreign parties there would have been no Saddam in the first place.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
ahh you're chosing to take only recent pages out of your history books.. had there been no meddling by foreign parties there would have been no Saddam in the first place.
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Explain...actually don't (or do so in a new thread) we're heading off the subject here.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
ahh you're chosing to take only recent pages out of your history books.. had there been no meddling by foreign parties there would have been no Saddam in the first place.
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