What If India Hadn't Been Partitioned?

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*Originally posted by devil123: *
the taliban would not have existed....Nor Bin Laden....
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would Daud Ibrahim have existed? would Chota Shakeel have existed? do you blame Dhananjoy Chatterjee also on Pakistan?

MS is spot on. I don't see how this united India that our friends still seem to dream of would be feasible at all. the Independence movement had gone so far that civil war would have been inevitable had partition not taken place. Gujrat and the Babri Masjid incidents that had little reaction in Pakistan would have had violent reprecussions for non-Muslims in the now Pakistan area - much like the Raj days. non-Muslims suffer in Muslim areas and Muslims suffer in non-Muslim areas and thus, continued the vicious cycle.

so, man get over it already. you got your independence and we got ours. you celebrate yours and we celebrate ours. and, let us be.

^ the article is written by Aislee embree and last I checked embree wasn;t Indian. It is just a ponderance Samby, no one wants a reunification. Economic maybe but not political. Desis take over the world. Led by Bangladesh ofcourse. :hehe:

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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
^ the article is written by Aislee embree and last I checked embree wasn;t Indian. It is just a ponderance Samby, no one wants a reunification.
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I know Matsui. my post was in response to Shah Sur Khan etc who keep on about what could have been had India not been parititioned. they really should get over it.

economic cooperation is all good and fine. but to blame Hindutva etc on Pakistan is utter rubbish. we have enough Muslim terrorists to take the blame for. so we can really do without having to take credit for Hindutva etc.

If Pakistan never existed, which country would have given india, thrashing in every sport ? :dhimpak:

Agar pakistan na hota tu India kis se pangaa kis se leta. :roman:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *

would Daud Ibrahim have existed? would Chota Shakeel have existed? do you blame Dhananjoy Chatterjee also on Pakistan?

MS is spot on. I don't see how this united India that our friends still seem to dream of would be feasible at all. the Independence movement had gone so far that civil war would have been inevitable had partition not taken place. Gujrat and the Babri Masjid incidents that had little reaction in Pakistan would have had violent reprecussions for non-Muslims in the now Pakistan area - much like the Raj days. non-Muslims suffer in Muslim areas and Muslims suffer in non-Muslim areas and thus, continued the vicious cycle.

so, man get over it already. you got your independence and we got ours. you celebrate yours and we celebrate ours. and, let us be.
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Daud ibrahim would have still existed and dhananjoy chatterjee's exist in every country irrespective of the faith it follows.
But Taliban was the creation of ISI , whose creation is linked to Pakistan.

Let's see what else...Hmm... No LET, JEM or the Kashmir Issue.
No Gauri , No Agni ...
No Samjhauta express.

What a country!!! Where Muslims have to covert to Hinduism to become president and to become even an actor (naachne gaany ka dhanda karney ke liyey) they have to marry their daughters, sisters and themselves to Hindus to gain some respect.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sambrialian: *
I know Matsui. my post was in response to Shah Sur Khan etc who keep on about what could have been had India not been parititioned. they really should get over it.

economic cooperation is all good and fine. but to blame Hindutva etc on Pakistan is utter rubbish. we have enough Muslim terrorists to take the blame for. so we can really do without having to take credit for Hindutva etc.
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Go suck a nugget.

Have you ever heard of Jewish fundamentalists before the Palestinians jihadies entered and started blowing sh*t up to pieces? NO!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Naadir: *
What a country!!! Where Muslims have to covert to Hinduism to become president and to become even an actor (naachne gaany ka dhanda karney ke liyey) they have to marry their daughters, sisters and themselves to Hindus to gain some respect.
[/QUOTE]

What a country Pakistan is, where they can't go to sleep without watching a bollywood flick. Pakistani Muslim mothers and sisters are crazy for some bollywood hindu hunkies. Visit a Bollywood concert, half is Hindu India and the rest if Muslim Pakistani/Indian.

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*Originally posted by elahi: *
Change your name to Shiva Saffron Khan and I can understand what you are saying
Pakistan has problems but the evolution of every state requires suffering, nothing happens magically and turns out perfectly overnight.
What abot WANA Waziristan and Kashmir?
Ask Kashmiris what they think of Pakistan, most of them don't have any complaints, Lahore is full of them.
I can almost laugh at your naivite if you think that a hypothetical Hindu majority Indian superstate would deal with terrorism in WANA, Waziristan and Balochistan in a gentle manner. Ask those seeking independance in Assam, Punjab or Kashmir, they might be able to enlighten you on your painfully naive views. Do you think that if these regions were part of India the Hindus would shield then from American scrutiny like Pakistan has tried to do?
Instead I suspect that the would carpet bomb the whole place and be rid of it. You should think about the alternative before whining and complaining about what exists today.
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If there was no Pakistan then there wouldn't be a Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban, which would mean there wouldn't have been Nek Mohammad and the current genocide of Pakhtuns in Wana.

Ask Kashmiris, of course ask Kashmiris who tried to blow up Musharaf recently.

Waziristan and Balochistan WERE gentle manners, not any more. Third of Pakistan is calling for independance, and the call is getting louder and louder. This Islamic state has failed to be Islamic after all, the bloods of Muslims is on its hands.

There was a time when you can fool illiterate donkeys in to Islamic brotherhood, but the world has changed, people have given birth to educated children who have realized and learned about "self-interest" before the religion of "Islam". If Pakistan first and Islam second, then Baloch first, Sindhi first, Pakhtun first. A step Pakistan made, a step these people will take. It is not a matter of if any more, it is a matter of when.

Do you believe in Allah? Do you also believe that he puts you through tests? What if you fail those tests?

What does Quran say about Muslims who side with "evil Kafirs" against Muslims?

The Quran now justifies the destruction of Pakistan.

What does Hadit say about Muslims who side with "evil Kafirs" against poor villager Muslims?

The Hadit now justifies the destruction of Pakistan.

Islamicaily the destruction of Pakistan is justified. Bring any mullah and I'll mop the floor with his beard.

Now I dont want Pakistan to be destroyed, but I also dont want anyone to justify Pakistan existence "ISLAMICALY"! There was nothing Islamic about and there is nothing Islamic about it today.

......

What, then, was partition all about?

By Ayaz Amir

As another independence day is about to be commemorated with fake sentiment and false speeches - we having fine-honed the talent of turning national holidays into the most boring events imaginable - the toughest question our history throws up can no longer be shirked: if Pakistan was to be a country dedicated to permanent dictatorship, what was the point of it all?

Did we go through the blood-drenching and mass migration accompanying partition - more than a million people killed and about 8-10 million people uprooted from their homes - so that Pakistan should be a country dedicated to the permanent usurpation of power?

Was Pakistani independence meant to be a synonym for authoritarianism?

Harsh questions? Not if you consider the mess our history has been or, more to the point, if you consider our apparently unshakeable determination to keep making a mess of it.

Pakistan was created for the people of Pakistan. This at least is the orthodox line turned into cruel myth by the steady march of authority figures on the Pakistani stage, our consistent specialty, the extra-constitutional take over. It bears branding into our collective consciousness that not a single peaceful transition of power marks the 57 tempestuous years of our history.

Yet, and savour the paradox, the bonds of nationhood (the sense of belonging to a nation) remain strong. Not because of Pakistan’s rulers who constitute a dismal club but because of the Pakistani people, most of whom, although not all, have nowhere else to go, no place else to call home.

If the flame of patriotism still burns in Pakistani breasts, and it does, it is a tribute not to blinkered and often downright stupid leadership but to the resilience and fortitude of the Pakistani people.

So, is there still something that we can call the Pakistani dream? There is but in the minds of the poor and the defenceless, not in the passions or pocketbooks of the rich and well-placed who long ago made a virtue of swimming with the tide and, in the process, exchanging the power of hope and striving for the armour of an all-weather cynicism.

But to recap the usual factors held responsible for the founding of Pakistan, Islam was not in danger in pre-1947 India. Indeed, considering the sectarian violence and religious bigotry we face today, it was in better health then.

Nor was democracy the issue because even if partition had not happened, India was getting democracy once the British left. The Indian Independence Act promised that.

So what was the compelling reason for the Muslims to insist on a separate homeland especially when there was no going around the uncomfortable fact that, no matter how generously the frontiers of the new state were drawn, an uncomfortably large number of Muslims would remain in India?

The purpose of Pakistan, transcending anything to do with safeguarding Islam or promoting democracy, was to create conditions for the Muslims of India, or those who found themselves in the new state, to recreate the days of their lost glory.

For eight centuries Muslim warriors - lured by tales of India’s wealth and, I daresay, the beauty of its women, and crossing the same Hindukush passes through which, centuries before, Aryan hordes had marched - invaded, conquered and ruled India, putting the impress of their culture and thought upon the land they colonized and receiving something from that land in return.

In the process, both invader and invaded were transformed. After eight centuries of intermingling and assimilation the Muslim in India, however hard he clung to his historical memories, was no longer a Turk, a Persian or an Arab but something else: an Indian Muslim. The land was transformed too, post-Muslim India not being the same as pre-Muslim India.

With the coming of the British, however, another transformation was also underway. Muslims lost their pre-eminent status, a process beginning with the disintegration of the Mughal Empire but carried much further as the British consolidated their hold on India.

Knocked off their pedestal, Muslims were now amongst the subjugated. But another discovery awaited them too. Outnumbered by the Hindu population, even amongst the subjugated they were not of the first rank.

Their overall position in India was thus relegated to number three, after the British and the Hindus, this being a measure of the shift in the historical calculus.

From mid-19th Century onwards, beginning with the first stirrings of a modern Muslim consciousness as expressed by the Aligarh school, Muslims may have agitated for jobs and special safeguards, such as separate electorates, but informing and indeed fuelling their quest was a vision of the past when they were great and the whole of India, not just a part, was their happy hunting ground.

At odds with the reality of Muslim impotence, this vision, this harking back to the past, reduced the Indian Muslim leadership to fighting a rearguard action: seeking to play the new game, of which the British were now the umpires, not across the entire field, because they felt it not in their power to do so, but asking that a patch be reserved for them so that in that reserved patch they should be able to ride unchallenged.

In a crucial sense, then, the Pakistan movement signalled a retreat from the heartland of empire to its outer edges, the final evacuation from Delhi and Agra to new centres of power in Punjab and Bengal.

But even then it was for the new state, Pakistan, to create a historical justification for itself by emulating and rivalling, in achievement and glory, even if on a reduced scale, the success of its historical model, the Mughal Empire (in a 20th Century setting, it goes without saying).

In other words, breaking away from India, for that’s what partition did, the justification for Pakistan lay not in merely existing but in showing the spark, vitality and vigour of a new organism, like America to the old world, Israel to its decadent surroundings, the breakaway part, in short, proving better in all that qualifies for civilized achievement than the erstwhile whole.

Against this scale of measurement how on earth do you place the kind of farce regularly staged in Pakistan: mediocre figures (no successors to Babar or Akbar, excuse me), meddling in politics when it is not their business to do so, adept neither at peace nor war, not understanding their own business or that of others, a succession of hopeless figures conspiring to make a mockery of a not-so-bad country? Mughal Empire indeed. Islamabad seems more like a replay of the last days of the Oudh dynasty.

The principal strengths of Muslim rule in the subcontinent were war, the consolidation of conquest, politics and administration. In all these fields Pakistan has not distinguished itself. Wars that should never have been fought started and then lost. About politics the less said the better.

It’s not as if Pakistan lacked promise or potential. It did not. But it has been betrayed by its stars and a succession of cardboard figures who would have received short shrift at Akbar’s court.

Is it all hopeless? Of course not. It’s not too late to turn the ship around. But we’ll have to go back to the drawing boards and, instead of taking Pakistan for granted which we often do, try to understand why this country was created.

For rule by a few? To be lorded over by an oligarchy at once inept and corrupt, heedless of history and out of sync with the times? Come off it. Pakistan was meant for better things which it can still reach provided we stop making a mess of our politics.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

^ The author is confused and contradicts himself in the article. Democracy is desirable, but not at the cost of plundering the country's wealth and making swiss accounts and palaces. Every country has a different way of thinking and its people are different. Pakistan is not India and India is not Pakistan. There shouldn't be military rule but the geo political situation and the lack of established institutions in the country justify such a government.

^ Salami, the institutions you don't make overnight. It takes years even centuries to have them esablished and they continue to evolve. You need to have a stomach for setbacks as a populace....intestinal fortitude is not a fickle discipline.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shah Sur Khan: *

Go suck a nugget.

Have you ever heard of Jewish fundamentalists before the Palestinians jihadies entered and started blowing sh*t up to pieces? NO!
[/QUOTE]

This is actually incorrect. Many would say that modern terrorism for political goals was created by Israeli Nationalists. Look into events such as the 1946 bombing of Jerusalem's King David Hotel or the the Deir Yassin Village Massacre by the Irgun Gang and the Stern Gang. In fact Menachem Begin, a future Israeli Prime Minister, was head of the Irgun Gang.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shah Sur Khan: *

If there was no Pakistan then there wouldn't be a Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban, which would mean there wouldn't have been Nek Mohammad and the current genocide of Pakhtuns in Wana.

Ask Kashmiris, of course ask Kashmiris who tried to blow up Musharaf recently.

Waziristan and Balochistan WERE gentle manners, not any more. Third of Pakistan is calling for independance, and the call is getting louder and louder. This Islamic state has failed to be Islamic after all, the bloods of Muslims is on its hands.

There was a time when you can fool illiterate donkeys in to Islamic brotherhood, but the world has changed, people have given birth to educated children who have realized and learned about "self-interest" before the religion of "Islam". If Pakistan first and Islam second, then Baloch first, Sindhi first, Pakhtun first. A step Pakistan made, a step these people will take. It is not a matter of if any more, it is a matter of when.

Do you believe in Allah? Do you also believe that he puts you through tests? What if you fail those tests?

What does Quran say about Muslims who side with "evil Kafirs" against Muslims?

The Quran now justifies the destruction of Pakistan.

What does Hadit say about Muslims who side with "evil Kafirs" against poor villager Muslims?

The Hadit now justifies the destruction of Pakistan.

Islamicaily the destruction of Pakistan is justified. Bring any mullah and I'll mop the floor with his beard.

Now I dont want Pakistan to be destroyed, but I also dont want anyone to justify Pakistan existence "ISLAMICALY"! There was nothing Islamic about and there is nothing Islamic about it today.
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So Kashmiris tried killing Musharraf? Well I did'nt know they were Kashmiri, but I don't see how it matters. They tried killing a leader, I don't think that in any way implies the partition should never have happened.
In Islamic terms the actions of the Pakistani government are wrong. In pragmatic and practical terms, I don't see any other options. Especially considering that Pakistan is dependant on the US for it's survival. This is a matter of poor leadership, I don't see it as grounds to break up the Pakistani state.
There is'nt a state in the world that would risk open conflict with the US, certainly Pakistan is not an exemption in this case. Aside from Iran, every other muslim country has cooperated with the US, weather this is a good or bad thing. Does this mean we should break every muslim country up into Provinces? I don't see how anybody would benefit from this.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by elahi: *
This is actually incorrect. Many would say that modern terrorism for political goals was created by Israeli Nationalists. Look into events such as the 1946 bombing of Jerusalem's King David Hotel or the the Deir Yassin Village Massacre by the Irgun Gang and the Stern Gang. In fact Menachem Begin, a future Israeli Prime Minister, was head of the Irgun Gang.
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Declared doomed by the international community of "Holy" believers they had no choice, just like Palestinians dont. Point, hate breads hate.