Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
What I am trying to use - when I say "FACT" ... is some term that is not connected to our perception ... Is it possible for a thing to exist despite our having knowledge of it? If so, then when we do obtain knowledge of it we must make a verdict about it - that verdict is to accept something about it or to reject something what others say about it ... When we make this verdict - we pull it in to our domain of belief. When we predicate from a thing - we can only do so when we have it established as some belief.
That belief may be assisted with evidence (all evidences themselves are necessarily beliefs - in that they provide the evidence intended and understood and accepted for them) or that belief may not be assisted with evidence. But nothing falls out of the domain of belief when we predicate some property of a thing under some scrutiny.
**To have no belief about something is equivalent thereof of having no knowledge of that thing. **This is another axiom for my use ...
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
Another factor to look at would be the concept of Certainty ... Imam Al-Ghazali has a big contribution to make in this area ... he is considered the pioneer of philosophical skepticism ...
Stemming from this and I do not know if a philosopher has already postulated this idea ... that since the foundation of knowledge cannot be philosophically reconciled (See Incoherence of the Philosophers) ... and certainty being subject to delusion as well as truth - the only way to arrive at truth is through Divine inspiration.
In addition - what may seem to be perfect and certain in matters of 2 + 2 = 4 is actually either constrained within given parameters or it is abstract (conceptual) and does not exist in the material sense. We cannot account for God in the same way we account for numbers. Numbers exist in the abstract sense they are not concrete things ... Concrete things - requiring the senses to discern them - are elusive ... there is always another angle that can be taken. Abstracts can be perfect and abstract models can be applied to some degree of accuracy to the material world ... however no exactness can result and hence no certainty exists in the concrete domain ... except as Imam Al-Ghazali says - "through Divine inspiration". And moments of inspiration can be given to anyone ... Just like life is given to all people indiscriminately. It is however our faith that discernment of truth is a matter of inspiration that only comes to the Friends of Allah (SWT).
Hence ... the surer we become of a matter the more abstract we have made it or the more abstract a matter to greater the level of certainty we can have about it ... - This is a philosophical idea that I am postulating perhaps someone else has come up with this before ... ? I don't know ...
… and compare this concept with the theory of evolution … If Islam is rooted by the concept of Occationalism (which I believe it is) can it be reconciled with the Theory of Evolution? …
I believe that if evolution is true then for Muslims it must be within some Intelligent Design framework … reducing it completely to every moment being created and destroyed and the connecting dots gives the perception of a causal sequence … hence miracles are merely part of the creation destruction array of independent events that make up reality but simply do not flow in a causal sequence as that observed in nominal existence or predictive patterns of nature. It also means that evolutionary processes or immediate spontaneous creation have no distinct features at all - they are equivalent.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
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Please see that you are falling in to what I already predicted ... "nothing is real everything is subjective"..
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Sorry for the carelessly worded statement. I have changed the verbiage in my previous post to try to communicate what I am talking about.
God is real that is our firm belief. We knew this through His messengers of course and how did we know that the messengers were actually representing Allah? if you say there were signs in previous scriptures then how did the unlettered Arabic people believe in the holy prophet (pbuh) and many Ahl-e-Kitab didn't. Belief is conviction in something that is real but beyond our senses. That is why we needed prophets/messengers rather than philosophers and scientists to know Him. enough said.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
Sorry for the carelessly worded statement. I have changed the verbiage in my previous post to try to communicate what I am talking about.
God is real that is our firm belief. We knew this through His messengers of course and how did we know that the messengers were actually representing Allah? if you say there were signs in previous scriptures then how did the unlettered Arabic people believe in the holy prophet (pbuh) and many Ahl-e-Kitab didn't. Belief is conviction in something that is real but beyond our senses. That is why we needed prophets/messengers rather than philosophers and scientists to know Him. enough said.
I understand what you are saying however it falls short of doing justice to the concept of "belief" ... as I said there are a lot of people who assert that belief implies no proof.
Since you are saying that:
Belief = Conviction without sensory evidence ...
I am asking what do we call?
??? = Conviction with sensory evidence
Do we call that "knowledge" ??? What if the sensory evidence is misleading us? The flat world scenario is a result of sensory evidence being erroneous. Are you prepared to class delusion in the same group as knowledge?
Instead I'm offering something else:
I'm saying that "conviction" = strong acceptance with or without sensory evidence, likewise "inclination" = weak acceptance with or without sensory evidence ... acceptance is for me equal or a synonym for belief.
Whereas for you belief is a type of conviction that necessarily has no evidence or proof.
This presents more problems for me because Islam tells us not to believe blindly ... and to follow guidance ... so if blind belief is such a thing as to accept something without any evidence and belief itself is to accept something without sensory evidence then what do we call it when we accept something with sensory or non-sensory evidence? As stated earlier it can't be knowledge. (If we can be deceived in senses we can also be deceived in other cognitive matters too) ... and for the reasons that Imam Al-Ghazali has stated we can't even be philosophically sure of what our five senses gather, even though we might feel quite sure about seeing something.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
“nothing is real everything is subjective”
then this statement too is subjective and it becomes circular and absurd ultimately.
I would rather say that, God is the absolute Master of the universe. We may or may not fathom His existence or may or may not be able to define reality in absolute sense, is another story.
and ‘absolute’ exists, because ‘subjective’ is sefl-defeating
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
All this. Also, to believe that the Qur'an is complete, that it is the truth. And also to not reject the commandments of Allah, e.g. somebody might not pray while accepting that it is a fault on his part vs someone rejecting the notion that he has to pray. This example of salat can equally apply to any clear order of Allah.
what you said about "somebody might not pray while accepting that it is a fault on his part vs someone rejecting the notion that he has to pray" .. I know someone who belongs to a certain sect of Islam, and they do not pray, nor learn to read the Quran, nor fast, nor follow the Prophet PBUH.. she says it is not necessary and not required to be a Muslim .. and a bunch of other things.. for example, they openly drink, openly mingle at their religious gatherings and much more.. yet she says she is Muslim..
I am NOT in way shape or form saying she is wrong, nor her beliefs are wrong or that nor any disrespect any such thing.. I am nobody to judge.. my question is just that, in Islam, in the Quran says at a minimum you have to do the above, and if you are not.. how is that bieng a Muslim? I just want to clarify for basic Islamic purposes and trying to get some insight
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
what you said about "somebody might not pray while accepting that it is a fault on his part vs someone rejecting the notion that he has to pray" .. I know someone who belongs to a certain sect of Islam, and they do not pray, nor learn to read the Quran, nor fast, nor follow the Propher PBUH.. and a bunch of other things.. yet she says she is Muslim.. I am NOT in way shape or form saying she is wrong, nor her beliefs are wrong or that nor any disrespect any such thing.. my question is just that, is Islam, in the Quran says at a minimum you have to do the above, and if you are not.. how is that bieng a Muslim?
Well the Qur'an itself says to establish salat. So what I'm saying is that if someone says for instance that they don't need to pray altogether, then that would take one out of the fold of Islam, i.e. for denying a clear commandment.
On the other hand someone might not pray but acknowledge that it's wrong on their part and that they have a duty to pray.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
yes, someone might not pray while acknowledging it's wrong personally.. however in my example, she is saying that their Isliamic religion does not require those types of things. when in reality, isn't the 5 pillars the most basic form Islam acceptance as a religion to follow?
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
One of the reasons given .. her and her jumaat's words was that Islam was written so long ago, that all those "Restrictions" and "Rules" are no longer valid.. they might have existed in those times, but not in today's modern world.. none of that matters..
I was lost because again, the Quran clearly states the basic principles, which her people are blatantly rejecting
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
One of the reasons given .. her and her jumaat's words was that Islam was written so long ago, that all those "Restrictions" and "Rules" are no longer valid.. they might have existed in those times, but not in today's modern world.. none of that matters..
I was lost because again, the Quran clearly states the basic principles, which her people are blatantly rejecting
Peace akaprincess
You friend sounds as if she is an Ismaili ... What you are seeing here is the need - the very important need to subscribe to a clear set of rules of belief ... ones that determine whether we are Muslim or not. There are some more involved understandings of their belief that you need to know ... but in terms of belief there are six main pillars ... Then there is the law and we must abide by it in accordance to its understandings. Prayer is not abrogated ... but some minorities claim this to be so.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
To be Muslim is to declare One God and the finality of prophethood as being with Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) … Further to this there is the 6 pillars of Islam … Further to this are other detailed beliefs … The sect your friend belongs to will concentrate only on the very simplest way to view being a Muslim. The simplest way does not speak about prayer. However, the correct way has always been about prayer in the right manner and times.
The tawheed. Oneness of Allah and Prophet Muhammed saw being His messenger..which means believing and trying to do what the prophet told and it includes Quran and sunnah.
Re: What do you believe you must believe to be a Muslim?
Besides all logic and the talk of 5 pillars and the age old overly used words that every aalim on the tv repeats over and over again. The question was what should one believe to be a muslim, can be answered in one word, submission. How far one takes the essence of the meaning is individual to each.
As is slouch here in the corner sofa relieved with a breath that brought me oxygen, my limbs intact energized, stomach full with morning breakfast and this extension of my being siting beside me, i acknowledge Allah swt presence and admit his grace and blessings and need his unending love and rehmat every moment of my life. Belief doesn't comes with words rather from within.
