Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
I have a friend whose last name is Ahmedi so it means he's an Ahmedi Muslim? I don't see any difference between his family and mine. Never even discussed this. What's the exact difference?
^No, it doesn't necessarily mean he's an Ahmedi muslim. It's a rather common surname in Iran and among Dari speaking people in Afghanistan (and is not related to the sect).
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
They consider others "Sarkaari Muslims" which is legitimate as others are Muslims because Sarkar/Constitution declared them Muslim otherwise they don't have any certificate from God of being Muslim. But even if they consider you Kaafir than what's problem in it, you also call them Kaafir?
What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Thankyou Mezhgan :)
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Ok.
You consider them to be doing kufr, but do call them muslims nonetheless. Am i correct?
what ever your scholars answer on what one should be called if a Muslim reject Jesus(as) when He comes back again, is the answer to your question.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
^ Anyone who will reject *Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum's *(as) leadership will have committed kufr and will have opted himself out of fold of Islam - thus a Kaffir
What do you say about some charlatan who claims to be Isa (and his name was not Isa) and he was never born to a lady named Maryum? What do you say about those poor souls who fell for his nefarious trap - believing him to be a prophet whereas he never fitted the criteria.
The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had warned his Ummah to be wary of false prophets.
Thawban ibn Kaidad narrated that Muhammad said; "There will be 30 dajjals among my Ummah. Each one will claim that he is a prophet; but I am the last of the Prophets (Seal of the Prophets), and there will be no Prophet after me." —Related by Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Abu Hurairah narrated Muhammad said; "The Hour will not be established until two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, until about 30 dajjals appear, and each of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle..." —Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Hâdith Number 237
Even bible states that Jesus son of Mary has warned that:
For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many. Matthew 24:5
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Just like there are lenient and stringent opinions among the Muslims regarding others there are also stringent and lenient opinions among the Qadianis about us ...
They cannot doubt our wahdaniyat (monotheism) nor our legacy ... but they hold a similar view about us as we do the Ahl-al-kitaab (Jews and Christians) ... but they really want us to recognise them because it legitimises them ... whereas we do not necessarily need the Jews or Christians to recognise us.
The reality is that their view of life is strange for us ... Imagine believing in the duty to go Hajj, but not be allowed to go since some foreign force is preventing us. Imagine having to gather for religious duties in another country. Imagine having to speak Urdu as if it is of some religious importance. Imagine having a view such as RasoolAllah (SAW) is not the final prophet - but there are others. This is what it would feel like to be Ahmadi ... almost as if the religion is in the hands of a stray lot and it is their duty to get acceptance first and then eventually conversion ... It is their goal and their belief that all Muslims will eventually become Ahmadi ... in order to realise their own beliefs regarding their promised Messiah ... that Islam will cover the world - not through the Mahdi - but through an eventual chain of Khalifs ... They see us Muslims as being the primary confrontation - but they are spending effort in spreading in areas where there are few resources ... lapsed Christians and unaware Muslims.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
[QUOTE]
^ Anyone who will reject *Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum's (as) leadership will have committed kufr and will have opted himself out of fold of Islam - thus a Kaffir
*
[/QUOTE]
One who attributes falsehood to Allah has committed 'zulm' and also who has rejected the signs of Allah and rejected a true one has also committed 'zulm'. both have committed kufr. Similarly, one who calls a Muslim, 'kafir', kufr boomerang back to him. So only one group can belong to Eiman either the one who accepted the Masih or the ones who rejected him. Let us not play kufr-kufr and leave it to Allah as who is in reality a momin and who is not.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Stemming from what I said earlier ...
Qadianis being a branch away need license whether they like it or not and will be less inclined to publicly denounce the mainstream Muslims, although mainstream Muslims have a need to protect the boundaries of our Islamic understanding and hence will be more inclined to publicly denounce stray ideas ... the advantage we have is that we are majority and we have legacy ... history shows that the Qadianis have a radically different understanding ... and with further investigation such as - aspects of faith regarding Adam (AS) and evolution and miracles it shows up a bit more.
But essentially Qadianis will feel and believe towards us the same as we do towards them and when put on the spot they will have to admit it ... But I agree with kchughtai - it should not matter to us what the Qadianis believe about us ... we have nothing to prove or lose from it ... A sensible discussion will unravel that they are different - if it comes to it we can discuss matters - the annoyance in the community has always been that they present themselves to be Muslims - but any simple investigation starkly opposes what they believe and the mainstream believes and I am talking about tawheed here and not about finality of prophethood - finality is as they say ... "door ki baat" ...
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Ahmadis call other muslims as "Non Ahmadis", and consider them as committing Kufr by rejecting a prophet; considering the Quranic verse (2:285): "La nufarriqu baina ahadin min rusulih." (Believers say) "We make no distinction between one another of HisMessengers.
Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?
Instead of making baseless statement, please clarify what aspect of Tawheed do Ahmadis reject?
As for the opposite, I can show you plenty of examples of MUSLIMS committing SHIRK, from mazaar parasti to openly performing sajday to other human beings, even holding the ridiculous belief that Allah ordered angels to perform sajda to Adam (Naozobillah Allah ordered angels to commit the first shirk).
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
what ever your scholars answer on what one should be called if a Muslim reject Jesus(as) when He comes back again, is the answer to your question.
Why must you go round in circles and post riddles? You can post a direct answer?
Ahmadis call other muslims as "Non Ahmadis", and consider them as committing Kufr by rejecting a prophet; considering the Quranic verse (2:285): "La nufarriqu baina ahadin min rusulih." (Believers say) "We make no distinction between one another of HisMessengers.
Thanks. Do they use the word 'muslim' for non ahmadis or not?
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
[QUOTE]
But essentially Qadianis will feel and believe towards us the same as we do towards them and when put on the spot they will have to admit it ... But I agree with kchughtai - it should not matter to us what the Qadianis believe about us ... we have nothing to prove or lose from it ... A sensible discussion will unravel that they are different - if it comes to it we can discuss matters - the annoyance in the community has always been that they present themselves to be Muslims - but any simple investigation starkly opposes what they believe and the mainstream believes and I am talking about tawheed here and not about finality of prophethood - finality is as they say ... "door ki baat" ...
[/QUOTE]
Ahmadis belief in Tauheed? Are you sure? Their belief in tauheed as well as "khatm-e-nabuwat" is far more stronger than the so-called main stream muslims. The main streamers forget that the main stream Jews blatantly rejected their Messiah Isa(as) as well.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Do they use the word 'muslim' for non ahmadis or not?
There is no fixed usage of term. Some Ahmadis use the word "Non Ahmadi Muslims", some just use "Non Ahmadi".
If the word "muslim" is not used, its sort of implied, because we generally dont use the words "Non Ahmadi" to describe members of other religions.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Majority is not always right
Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?
Kchughtai what you have stated above is true that:
One who attributes falsehood to Allah has committed ‘zulm’
and also who has rejected the signs of Allah and rejected a true one has also committed ‘zulm’.
both have committed kufr.
Please see/read the stance/view/position of your elders concerning those who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chiragh Bibi to anything but a charlatan:
Truth about the Split By Hadrat Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Khalifatul Masih II ra
**
Refutation of Maulawi Muhammad Ali’s**
Account of Ahmadiyya Dissensions.
After dealing with the alleged resemblance between my Jama‘at and the followers of Jesus as , Maulawi Muhammad Ali proceeds to describe the history of dissensions in the Ahmadiyya Movement, and endeavours to show how after the death of the Promised Messiah as a certain conjunction of circumstances gradually led the present writer to introduce changes in my former beliefs.
Alleged Innovations
These changes, according to Maulawi Muhammad Ali, relate to three matters;
(1) that I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was actually a Nabi;
(2) the belief that he was ‘the Ahmad’ spoken of in the prophecy of Jesus as referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7; and
(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.
That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit. What I deny is the statement that I have been entertaining these views since 1914 or only three or four years before. On the contrary, as I shall presently show, the first and the last of these beliefs were entertained by me even during the lifetime of the Promised Messiah as , while the second belief developed soon after the death of the Promised Messiah as as a result of the teachings I received from Hadrat Khalifatul Masih I ra , and of the various discourses I had, with him on the subject.
Please scroll down to page 56 and 57 on the following link:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth-about-the-Split.pdf
**A’inah-i Sadaqat ** - same author book in Urdu
“The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely that those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah’. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims.”** A’inah-i Sadaqat** (pp. 135-136)
“Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims.” A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)
“not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs.” A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)
“And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs.” A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)
veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book
One can read the book in the following link:
Yes the quoted ayah is true – obaid1982 but one cannot lump true Prophets (peace be on them all) with Charlatans
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
Mods please lock this thread. Its going down the ****ter.
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
[QUOTE]
Qadianis being a branch away need license whether they like it or not and will be less inclined to publicly denounce the mainstream Muslims, although mainstream Muslims have a need to protect the boundaries of our Islamic understanding and hence will be more inclined to publicly denounce stray ideas ... the advantage we have is that we are majority and we have legacy ... history shows that the Qadianis have a radically different understanding ... and with further investigation such as - aspects of faith regarding Adam (AS) and evolution and miracles it shows up a bit more.
[/QUOTE]
Let me correct you first. It is 'Ahmadis' not 'Qadianis'. You are following the course of those who used to call Muslims as "Mohamadans" and "Musla" and many other terms that were employed to show contempt.
As far denouncing other Muslims is concerned, we are of the view that those who call themselves Muslims, believe in one Allah and the prophethood of prophet Muhammad(pbuh) are Muslims. that is why we call others as non-Ahmadi Muslims but also state that rejecting the Masih is kufr on their part. Now make a note that our stance is based on your own acceptance and rejection and not awarding a label of kafir or non-muslim as is common practice in the majority you are so proud of.
Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?
Ahmedis consider other muslims as non muslims.
*banda agar aqeedah rakhay tau mardoon ki tarah disclose bhi karay 
*I can prove this any time any where, search previous such threads on gupshup as well or i can post scanned images.
Read this as quick reference.
Restored attachments:
Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
We call them non-Ahmadi muslims. In our Friday sermons and other discourse, we always refer to them as non-Ahmadi muslims collectively and as suni, shia etc. if we are referring to a subset.
Our definition of a muslim, as per the sunnah of the holy prophet (pbuh), is anyone who believes in and recites the kalima. And most importantly, we don't believe in forcing our way on others.
Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?
^ There is a definite divergence between what you have stated and what Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Khalifatul Masih II states!
He is son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his second successor - Which of you two is right?
He deems anybody who doesn’t acknowledge Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani as prophet is a kaffir - and outside pale of Islam - on what grounds do you label them as non-Ahmadi Muslims?
How can someone be a kaffir and outside pale of ISLAM and yet be labeled as a Muslim of any description?
