Mahiwal,
About Hadiths vs. Quran; a good example would be, what to do with the Adulterous people.
According to Quran it is stated to flog them, but there are a few Hadiths that mention the stone to death (which by the way is a Jewish law)
I've just spoken to a man with a very long
beard and a puka hat that only very serious looking stern Imams wear and he reckons we should stone adulterers to death.
He says he already has a bag of stones he collected from a recent trip to Afghanistan (before the USA flattened it) and anyone can borrow them.
Apparently it was the most popular form of weekend family entertainment in Afghanistan watching someone have their skulls smashed being battered to death.
It amazes me how many Muslims would love to bring in stoning to death punishments.
Farouq Taj.
Asalam ualikum W'r W'b ahmadjee; Please mention those ahadiths, with their references and asnads, and we'll take it from there.
Mahiwal, Bhai you will find all the hadiths & fatwas in this perticular thread: Stoning sentence for Pakistan woman
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
***Mahiwal,
According to Quran it is stated to flog them, but there are a few Hadiths that mention the stone to death (which by the way is a Jewish law)*
[/quote]
I could be wrong about this but my sheik told me that Stoning for adultery was the Law of Prophet Moses (as) and he (Moses) was a Muslim not a Jew.
[quote]
Originally posted by google:
...Stoning for adultery was the Law of Prophet Moses (as) and he (Moses) was a Muslim not a Jew.
[/quote]
What is "Law of Prophet"? If you mean to say what Prophet told people to do.... then: What if Allah SWT already has a command in Quran to follow, what supercedes what?
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** What is "Law of Prophet"? If you mean to say what Prophet told people to do.... then: What if Allah SWT already has a command in Quran to follow, what supercedes what?
**
[/quote]
I meant 'Taurat'. I thought Prophet Muhammad saw came to complete all the previous message of Allah swt.
Of course we should follow the Quran above all.
Asalam ualikum W'r W'b ahmadjee;
Sorry for taking so long to respond. The punishment prescribed in the Quran is for illegal sexual relations between unmarried individuals(100 lashes), however the punishment for stoning which we derive from ahadiths is for extra-marital sexual affairs.
The nature of the ahadiths is such that it cannot be rejected since it has been reported by a lot of sahabas. As I had stated before, a lot of ahadiths clarify a lot of the rulings, such as the explanation on how to offer salat can not be found in the Quran, and ahadiths are required to further clarify the position.
Hope that helped. I sincerely hope that I have not stated anything which was not truthful. Conclusively, I believe that ahadiths can not over-ride the Quran when a specific ruling is already in place.
[quote]
Originally posted by Mahiwal:
The punishment prescribed in the Quran is for illegal sexual relations between unmarried individuals(100 lashes)
[/quote]
I'm sure you have some evidence to back this theory of yours. I do not remember the Qur'an stating that the punishment was for only a select group of people.
PakistaniAbroad,
The meanings are established by those who are experts in the Arabic language. There is no confusion on this topic between Ulemas. The answer I had provided to you is the consensus of the Ulemas and not my personal opinion.
It is established through ahadiths that the Prophet(PBUH) had prescribed the lashes for unmarried individuals and the stoning for the married ones.
And Allah(SWT) knows best.
[quote]
The meanings are established by those who are experts in the Arabic language.
.....
It is established through ahadiths
[/quote]
hmm do I see a contradiction?? or are you saying that Hadith will override Qur'an which brings us back to the same question doesn't it?
All rulings in Shariah are derived through a combined study of Quran and Ahadiths. In this case, the ahadiths has clarified (and not over-ridden) that the punishment prescribed in the Quran is for unmarried individuals.
And by the way, this enmity with Ahadiths and its followers isn't healthy. Whats more amusing is that someone can choose to follow Quran and not Ahadiths when they've been transferred through the same medium?
Mahiwal (& others who might want to reply),
I understand yours & Mr. Ibrahim's point of view that Hadiths is a significant part of Islam but do not agree with it in the context of adultary.
Do you believe that a Hadiths at any point can abrogate Quran?
ahmadjee, I'll requote myself if that could be of any help!
[quote]
All rulings in Shariah are derived through a combined study of Quran and Ahadiths. In this case, the ahadiths has clarified (and not over-ridden) that the punishment prescribed in the Quran is for unmarried individuals.
[/quote]
If the Ahadiths had said that there is no flogging punishment at all, you might have had a case, but right now, it only seems like a case of rebellion, sorry to say.
And No, Ahadiths can not over-ride the Quran. (BTW It might help you to actually go to a scholar and discuss your doubts) This issue has been shown in so many ahadiths that the Ulema are in no doubts whatsoever about this punishment.
Mahiwal,
I do not intend to make this yet another thread on stoning. Please read my comments in the other thread.
Thank you for your input regarding Hadiths in conjunction with Quran.
[quote]
Originally posted by Mahiwal:
**All rulings in Shariah are derived through a combined study of Quran and Ahadiths. In this case, the ahadiths has clarified (and not over-ridden) that the punishment prescribed in the Quran is for unmarried individuals.
And by the way, this enmity with Ahadiths and its followers isn't healthy. Whats more amusing is that someone can choose to follow Quran and not Ahadiths when they've been transferred through the same medium?**
[/quote]
Do you think Allah needed some help in translating his verses? Isn't his book fully detailed and a clear explanation?? Hasn't Allah said that He's made it easy for us??
The ahadith's haven't 'clarified' they have outrightly added to the Qur'anic punishment.
The claim that Hadith were transmitted through the same medium is really an attempt to bring the feeble hadiths at par with the glorious Qur'an.
Bring me a manuscript of the important hadiths that Usman (one of the caliphs you consider rightly guided) should have distributed with his authentic Qur'anic copies. Since you claim that all rulings in Shariah are established through Qur'an AND Hadith, prove to me that Usman didn't commit a sin when he sent Qur'an copies ONLY to all Muslim states and did not attach Hadith compilations which in your opinions are necessary to clarify what's in the Qur'an.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** I'm sure you have some evidence to back this theory of yours. I do not remember the Qur'an stating that the punishment was for only a select group of people.**
[/quote]
In the name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful
024.001 A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
024.004 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
024.005 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.
024.006 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
024.010 If it were not for Allah’s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-
Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
** These are verses from The Quran where the punishment is prescribed for zina (illicit sex).**
Since PA wants to know whether the Quran states the punishment is for a selected group of people...
Verses 2, 3, 4 & 5 addresses a selected group of people who are "un-married" and verses 6, 7, 8 & 9 is addressed to another selected group of people who are "married".
If the punishment was the same for every one, whether "married" or "un-married", why should there be verses 6, 7, 8, 9 in this "Surah of the Quran"?
[This message has been edited by Different (edited July 12, 2002).]
PakistaniAbroad;
Yes indeed, we do need the Prophet(PBUH) to help us understand the word of Allah(SWT), as Allah(SWT) Al-mighty says:
He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)
Rest of the post is filled with your usual argument, so pardon me for not bothering with it.
My Browser link for Qur'an translation isn't working so i'll use your translations for the time being:
[quote]
**
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. **
[/quote]
PakistaniAbroad: Note the style of writing.. the word used is zaanya and zaani.
There is NO confusion that it refers to ALL women and men.
[quote]
*024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. *
[/quote]
PakistaniAbroad: Here again the words are zaanya and zaani. And again includes all men and women guilty of fornication.
[quote]
**024.004 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
024.005 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful. **
[/quote]
PakistaniAbroad: This verse again refers to ALL women who are chaste. Remember, women can be chaste even if they are married by not taking paramours. Thus the verse addresses a situation where the public accuses ANY woman of adultery.
**
[quote]
024.006 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
**
[/quote]
PakistaniAbroad: This verse talks about the handling of affairs whilst in a marital relationship. The public's role is now out of the window. It's one spouse opposite the other with no witnesses.
[quote]
*024.008 *But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. **
[/quote]
PakistaniAbroad: WHOA..... WHOA...
What punishment would be averted from the wife if she invokes the wrath of Allah??? is there something introduced between verse 24:2 and 24:8 to break the continuity of the subject??
Think ... Think harder.. the verse explains it's self.. the punishment that would be averted is the one discussed in 24:2. That is the theme of the verses with the start being the prescribed punishment for an act and further verses are the various situations in which that punishment is applied.
Where oh where is stoning????
[quote]
*024.010 If it were not for Allah’s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed). *
[/quote]
Indeed.. Praise Allah The Lord of the Universe, who has no partner .. not in any prophet and not in any scholar.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
PakistaniAbroad: Note the style of writing.. the word used is zaanya and zaani.
There is NO confusion that it refers to ALL women and men.
**
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
PakistaniAbroad: Here again the words are zaanya and zaani. And again includes all men and women guilty of fornication.
**
[/quote]
It seems that once a married woman is proved to be a zaanya,
1. she loses her marital status? Is this what you want me to believe?
2. Or is it allowed for women to have multiple husbands?
If the answer to the above questions is "no" then I think it is clear that the issue has been addressed to un-married men and women in the first few ayahs of this Surah, and then it is addressed to married men and women.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**
024.008 But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
PakistaniAbroad: WHOA..... WHOA...
What punishment would be averted from the wife if she invokes the wrath of Allah??? is there something introduced between verse 24:2 and 24:8 to break the continuity of the subject??
Think ... Think harder.. the verse explains it's self.. the punishment that would be averted is the one discussed in 24:2. That is the theme of the verses with the start being the prescribed punishment for an act and further verses are the various situations in which that punishment is applied.
Where oh where is stoning????
**
[/quote]
Do you know how severe this oath is? To invoke the Wrath of Allah upon ones self? Its evident from this that the punishment here is more than just 100 lashes (The word used here for punishment is "azaab").
Because in the second verse it is not mentioned how many witnesses should there be, in order to execute the punishment of the 100 lashes to the zaani and the zaanya.
Here in the case of husband and wife, since it is only the husband who is a witness, and for that reason both of them are asked to take severe oaths, if the woman is denying her husband's claim, likewise if an un-married man and woman are witnessed by one person why is it not mentioned for them to take oaths? If the man and woman deny the accusations?
Verse 4 only mentions about accusing women, not men. So please explain, why is it that the husband and wife are given the option of averting the punishment by taking oaths and not the un-married man and woman?
** And please tell us, what is the exact meaning of the word "muhsanat", since you can understand the Quran so well, that the Sunna and Hadith of our Prophet SAW are meaningless to you.**
The truth is that you have to refer to the Sunna and Hadith of our Prophet in order to understand the Quran correctly. You cannot claim to understand the Quran completely just by reading it only.
[This message has been edited by Different (edited July 12, 2002).]