What about banking Job

[X2]

Re: What about banking Job

Surely, you did not read the last post before posting another one of your "is that haram too?".

surely you dont think your last post answered anything rather than just regurgitating what you heard somewhere without putting it through any sanity check

will not mind telling us what you do for a living?
declaring things haram for others is very easy

when you consume products by companies that are engaged in interest based ttransacations you are supporting interest, when you take advantage of facilities which use interest as a source or engage in interest related financing, youb are supporting interest.

so lets play haram haram now dude..

PS: this website is supported by funds that come from a person working in a company that engages in interest, and at one time a company that has a massive financing arm.

PS2: log off, we wont tell anyone ;)

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: What about banking Job

Hello!

This is an interesting discussion. In all religions there will be beliefs, conventions and practices that become impractical over time. The barring of interest in Islam is one such.

While a completely interest free society if unimaginable these days, I wonder how it would have been practical in any period. After all when someone lends capital to someone who needs the capital there has to be a reward. Such reward cannot be only 'at risk' such as a partnership since the person providing the capital would not want to take on the risks of the business.

If interest is shunned, economic activity will be reduced to a tiny tiny fraction resulting in great hardship.

Therefore such a restriction is unviable and impractical.There is no for-profit venture today that operates without receiving or paying interest.

Regards
Pundit Vinkram

[Kaleem]

Re: What about banking Job

Its Haram and Faisal can tell you all about it... :)

[USResident]

Re: What about banking Job

I think it needs to be understood what exactly is interest from an Islamic perspective and what is trading and business. Interest in Islam comes into play when charitable loans are extended to people in need and when two things of par instrinsic value are traded. These are the cases where interest is haram.

My opinion may be considered quite divergent from mainstream thought however I do not agree that an investment loan is a loan, its simply investment and carries its risks and rewards. The reward portion of it today is called interest but can also be seen as ROI. Our scholars classify interest incorrectly during business transactions. What is wrong Islamically is the nature of the business transaction but not because we call it interest. Interest of today does not carry the same meaning and extortion level as it did centuries ago.

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: What about banking Job

Hello USResident,

I am not sure In understand what you are saying in the part of about what is interest from a Islamic point of view. Can you clarify a bit please?

In current times, many countries do have laws against usury, loan sharking etc. Is that what you are saying the Islamic meaning of the term interest is? If that is the case, then normal interest such as what is charged and paid by recognized banks should not be in violation of Islamic principles at all, right?

Even in modern banks while their home loans, car loans, operating cash credit for businesses etc have nominal interest rates, the credit card rates are unreasonably high sometimes reaching 30% and above and then there are fees! I think those are really usury but for some reason the governments don't consider them so. Those are the ones that bring undue hardship to common people who can ill afford such costs.

I have a disagreement on what you have said about 'investment loans' and associated risk/reward - perhaps it is my misunderstanding of what you are saying.

If I a start a business I own the business which means I own the risks and rewards associated with that business as well as the responsibility to make sure that business succeeds.

If I lend money to you to own and operate a business, the risks and rewards as well as the responsibilities mentioned are yours. Why should I take on that responsibility when you own the business? In other words, a creditor is different from a partner or shareholder.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[Ambassador1]

Re: What about banking Job

After reading all the posts, I get a feeling that being a muslim in today’s ignorant world is… haaraaaaaaaaam

[X2]

Re: What about banking Job

@USResident

I think it needs to be understood what exactly is interest from an Islamic perspective and what is trading and business. Interest in Islam comes into play when charitable loans are extended to people in need and when two things of par instrinsic value are traded. These are the cases where interest is haram.

My opinion may be considered quite divergent from mainstream thought however I do not agree that an investment loan is a loan, its simply investment and carries its risks and rewards. The reward portion of it today is called interest but can also be seen as ROI. Our scholars classify interest incorrectly during business transactions. What is wrong Islamically is the nature of the business transaction but not because we call it interest. Interest of today does not carry the same meaning and extortion level as it did centuries ago.

US resident yahusuryu/riba is more akin to loansharking than financing in my view as well.

[TLK]

Re: What about banking Job

Here is the fatwa issued by Dr. Monzer Kahf, a prominent economist and counselor, who states:

It is permissible to work in any department in a conventional bank, credit department, the IT or software department or others, as long as you do not prepare any interest-based contracts or sign them on behalf of the bank.

This is exactly what I heard from the scholars whom I learn from ...

[USResident]

Re: What about banking Job

@X2

US resident yahusuryu/riba is more akin to loansharking than financing in my view as well.

Exactly my point, common muslims and our scholars have marred the distinctive lines between financing and charitable monetary assistance (loansharking). Even scholars who have economic or financial backgrounds, sadly, maybe because of the pressure from classical scholars who rule in majority and weigh in on every other contemporary scholars opinions. Our people are in serious need of education about the fiscal system of today and should stop applying the concepts and rulings of barter trade to todays finance. Interestingly, if you look at the Islamic mutual funds available today in US i.e. say Dow jones Islamic fund, it invests in US companies.

[USResident]

Re: What about banking Job

@Pundit_Vikram

Hello USResident,

I am not sure In understand what you are saying in the part of about what is interest from a Islamic point of view. Can you clarify a bit please?

In current times, many countries do have laws against usury, loan sharking etc. Is that what you are saying the Islamic meaning of the term interest is? If that is the case, then normal interest such as what is charged and paid by recognized banks should not be in violation of Islamic principles at all, right?

Even in modern banks while their home loans, car loans, operating cash credit for businesses etc have nominal interest rates, the credit card rates are unreasonably high sometimes reaching 30% and above and then there are fees! I think those are really usury but for some reason the governments don't consider them so. Those are the ones that bring undue hardship to common people who can ill afford such costs.

I have a disagreement on what you have said about 'investment loans' and associated risk/reward - perhaps it is my misunderstanding of what you are saying.

If I a start a business I own the business which means I own the risks and rewards associated with that business as well as the responsibility to make sure that business succeeds.

If I lend money to you to own and operate a business, the risks and rewards as well as the responsibilities mentioned are yours. Why should I take on that responsibility when you own the business? In other words, a creditor is different from a partner or shareholder.

Regards Pundit Vikram

First off, I am not sure here whether you even understand Islam or its fundamentals. I apologize however your nick does not seem to represent a muslim or I have not been to active lately on the forum so I may be missing if you are a muslim.

These are my views strictly. What banks pay in interest today is really based on the profits they make by circulating your money for investting in the economy. Banks are not places for just keeping your money safe, they are part of the economy and have a role to play. So when you deposit your money into a bank you have already invested it into the economy because the banks give loans based on their net assets while keeping some percentage in reserve depending on the federal or state charter. People who do not realize this aspect of wealth circulation and continue to see a bank as just a secure place to put money are normally of the view that we should not take interest from them. No bank will keep your money safe as a courtesy unless there is something in it for them, we should educate ourselves about what a bank really is in todays economy.

I agree some credit card rates are no less than extortion.

When I loan you money to invest in your business, I am just being a passive investor with a specified stake in the profits of your company. I would not be lending you for charitable intention. After all if I see a high probability of you loosing your business then I would be denying the loan, wouldn't I or ask for some collateral in return for security. So its investment from the perspective of the creditor not charitable assitance.