Western tribes of Mahabharata

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

^ I know that the religion of the region including Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan used to be Budhism till 6 century AD, after that Hinduism took over, and by the time Islam came along Hinduism was the main religion. The interesting part remains even the Hindushahi government (Hindu government) in Punjab (500 to 1000 AD) was based in kabul as well. When the Afghans became muslims they converted Punjabis with them.

There has always been influence of Afghans on Punjab, you can see different eras and the religion (Budhism, Hinduism and Islam) being practiced in Afghanistan , KP and Punjab. In all eras the religion in these areas have always been the same (at least during the past 2500 years of recorded history), now read the various excerpts that I have pasted above regarding the Bahlikas (who again were Balkhis, Afghans) and how they were perceived during Vedic times.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Bahlikas were not the original Gandharas or Punjabis.

Some hymns of Atharvaveda invoke the fever to go to the Gandharis, Mahavrsas (a tribe of Punjab), Mujavants and, further off, to the Bahlikas. Since Mujavant is the name of a hill (and a people) located in Hindukush/Pamir,[SUP][2]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)[/SUP] therefore, the Bahlikas must lie beyond the Hindukush ranges.

The fact that Puranic evidence locates the Bahlikas in Uttarapatha and further the close association of the Bahlikas with the Kambojas as well as with Tusharas, Sakas and Yavanas in the Atharvaveda Parisista and in some other ancient sources suggests that the Bahlikas were located as a close neighbor to the Tusharas, Sakas, Yavanas and the Kambojas etc. Since the Kambojas were located in Badakshan and Pamirs, the Tusharas on the north of Pamirs and the Sakas on the river Jaxartes and beyond, the Bahlikas or Bahlams, as neighbors to these people should be placed in Bactria.

The Brahmanda Purana attests that river Chaksu (Oxus or Amu Darya) flowed through the land of Bahlavas (Bahlikas).

So Bahlikas were original inhabitants of Bactria.

Bahlikas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is possible that some bactrians migrated to form settlements in Punjab region during the time of the Mahabharata. They assimilated to an extent but did not completely adopt the vedic culture, so though they were political and marital alliances, they retained part of their non vedic culture. They were ridiculed because of that.
According to Jean Przylusky, the Bahlika (Balkh) was an Iranian settlement of the Madras who were known as Bahlika-Uttaramadras.
They intermarried with the other vedic people since the ancestors of the Kauravas and Pandavas were Bahlikas (Kuru dynasty with origins in Uttarakuru). But the Kauravas and Pandavas did not consider themselves as Bahlikas any more despite the Pandavas mother being a Bahlika princess.

Other Info:

Ramayana testifies that the original home of the Kurus was in Bahli country. Ila, son of Parajapati Karddama was a king of Bahli, where Bahli represents Sanskrit Bahlika (Bactria). Also the kings from Aila lineage have been called Karddameyas. The Aila is also stated to be the lineage of the Kurus themselves.[SUP][7]](Uttarakuru - Wikipedia)[/SUP] The Karddamas obtained their name from river Karddama in Persia/ancient Iran. Moreover, Sathapatha Brahmana attests a king named Bahlika Pratipeya as of the Kauravya lineage. Bahlika Pratipeya, as the name implies, was a prince of Bahlika (Bactria). Thus, the Bahli, Bahlika was the original home of the Kurus. Thus, Bahlika or Bactria may have constituted the Uttarakuru. Mahabharata and Sumangalavilasini also note that the people of Kuru had originally migrated from Uttarakutru. Bactria is evidently beyond the Hindukush i.e. Himalaya. In ancient literature, Himalaya is said to be extending from eastern occean to western occean and even today is not separated from it.[SUP][8]](Uttarakuru - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]V. S. Aggarwala thinks that the Uttarakuru was located to north of Pamirs in Central Asia and was also famous for its horses of Tittirakalamasha variety.[SUP][11]](Uttarakuru - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Thus it probably comprised parts of Kirgizstan and Tian-Shan. Incidentally, the reference to horses from Uttarakuru rules out any possibility of locating Uttarakurus in Kashmir and Uttarakhand Pradesh since these regions have never been noted for their horses.
Ptolemy mentions Uttarkuru as Ottorokoroi[SUP].
[/SUP]
Christian Lassen suggests that the Ottorokoroi of Ptolemy should be located in the east of Kashgar i.e. in Tarim Basin.[SUP][17]](Uttarakuru - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]

Uttarakuru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Yes, but some of them had settled in Punjab during Vedic times.

Bahlikas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bahlikas in plains of Punjab

Salya, the king of Madra referred to in the Mahabharata has been called a Bahlika Pungava i.e. foremost among the Bahlikas.[SUP][12]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)
[/SUP]

Princess Madri from the Madra Royal Family has also been referred to as Bahliki i.e. princess of Bahlika clan.[SUP][13]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)
[/SUP]
In the digvijay expedition of Pandava Arjuna, there is a reference to a people called Bahlikas whom Arjuna had to fight with.[SUP][14]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)[/SUP] They are stated to be located on the southern side of Kashmir as neighbors to the Ursa and Sinhapura kingdoms.[SUP][15]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)
[/SUP]
**A passage in Ramayana attests that on the way from Ayodhya to Kekaya, one had to pass through the country of Bahlikas, located somewhere in Punjab. This shows that ancient Bahlikas had moved to and planted a settlement in Punjab too.[SUP][16]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][17]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)[/SUP] This is also verified from the epic Mahabharata.
**
**This shows that there was yet another Bahlika country besides the one located in Bactria.
**
Dr P. E. Pargiter points out that there was also another Bahlika settlement in the plains of Punjab alongside or south of Madradesa.[SUP][18]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][19]](Bahlikas - Wikipedia)
[/SUP]

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

From my previous post…

It is possible that some bactrians migrated to form settlements in Punjab region during the time of the Ramayana/ Mahabharata. They assimilated to an extent but did not completely adopt the vedic culture, so though they were political and marital alliances, they retained part of their non vedic culture. They were ridiculed because of that.:slight_smile:
They intermarried with the other vedic people since the ancestors of the Kauravas and Pandavas were Bahlikas (Kuru dynasty with origins in Uttarakuru). But the Kauravas and Pandavas did not consider themselves as Bahlikas any more despite the Pandavas mother being a Bahlika princess.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

^ So when was Mahabharata officially written? Was it in oral form initially?

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

The background to the Mahabharata suggests the origin of the epic occurs at a time “after the very early Vedic period” and before “the first Indian ‘empire’ was to rise in the third century B.C.”. That this is “a date not too far removed from the eighth or ninth century B.C.”[SUP][2]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][10]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP] is likely. It is generally agreed that “Unlike the Vedas, which have to be preserved letter-perfect, the epic was a popular work whose reciters would inevitably conform to changes in language and style,”[SUP][10]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP] so the earliest surviving components of this dynamic text are believed to be no older than the earliest external references we have to the epic, which may include an allusion in Panini’s fourth century BCE grammar (Ashtādhyāyī 4:2:56).[SUP][2]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][10]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP] It is estimated that the Sanskrit text probably reached something of a “final form” by the early Gupta period (about the 4th century CE).[SUP][10]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Vishnu Sukthankar, editor of the first great critical edition of the Mahabharata, commented: “It is useless to think of reconstructing a fluid text in a literally original shape, on the basis of an archetype and a stemma codicum. What then is possible? Our objective can only be to reconstruct the oldest form of the text which it is possible to reach on the basis of the manuscript material available.”[SUP][11]](Mahabharata - Wikipedia)[/SUP] That manuscript evidence is somewhat late, given its material composition and the climate of India, but it is very extensive.

Source:Wikipedia as usual

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

^ thanks, and what was the war of the 10 Kings? Was it different to the Kurukshetra war?

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

@ Syed I had no idea Madrid - mother of Nakul and Sahadev related to Madras.

Hattori-San also is knowledgeable. Learnt from him Ravana was a Brahmin.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

^ yes lets see if he pops up here. :)

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Gods, Sages and Kings: Vedic Secrets of Ancient Civilization - David Frawley - Google Books


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Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Gandhar could be either Kandhar of modern day afghanistan or Gandhara civilization:)

The first text of Hinduism was Manusmiriti, Maharaja Manu was King of DravidDesh, His story is similar to Noah of Ark:)

No, Vedas originated before writing was discovered while Mahabharat came much later, it is last of Hindu text after organized writing was discovered it itself mentioned that it was spoken by VedVyas and written by Bhagwan Ganesh.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Veda Vyasa wanted a scribe to whom he could dictate the Mahabharata ( a stenographer). Lord Ganesha was chosen. But Ganesha had a condition - you should dictate without interruption. If you stop during story telling, I stop writing for good.

Vyasa agreed on one condition - sure he said. But you HAVE to understand everything you write.

So when Vyasa was stuck he would give a complex sentence or two that made Ganesha slow down! Thus was the Mahabharata written!!

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

So what was the history behind Vedas? When was it written?

I personally think gandhar is from gandhara, which was spread throughout northern Pakistan and Afghanistan (which could also include Kandahar) as gandhara seems to have played a big role in Vedic times, it really took off in 1 century Ad under the Kushans.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Most primitive text of the genius people are called Vedas:), First of it is Rigveda, the most worshipped river in Vedas is Saraswati, Personified Saraswati, daughter of Brhma is in Brhamlok (heavanly abode) now, Vedas originated from River Saraswati as written in vedas which might mean that it was written at the banks of saraswati and when saraswati had dried, they referred it has went back to heaven, Migration near the Ganga happened during post vedic period, that is why Puranas and Mahakavyas consider ganga as sacred and refer that it came down from heaven

Vedas intially originated orally and trasferred from one generation to another through oral tradition and were written after writing was discovered, the age in which they are written is not sure.

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

^ thanks for the info

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

In related news, the kingdom of Matsya was out in full force to greet their king Virat(a) Kohli after hisxmarvellous batting heroics. The greeting was led by daughter Uttara and her husband Brihannala (aka Arjuna).

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Uttara was married to Abhimanyu not Arjun:)

Re: Western tribes of Mahabharata

Sorry about that!