moona - Thanks for shutting roman chacha up - yeh har bat mein tang daltey hain apni
Thanks fury for a wonderful post learned a lot - Jazakallah
Dang i always forget my zaat to me these things doesnt really matter]
Thanks RF, I was asking because I have a friend who said he'd never marry in an arian girl and everytime I asked what was wrong with them he never gave me a straight answer. The other story I remember , was when the present President of the PML(Q) Mian Azhar started opposing Nawaz Sharif in early 99 some of my friends were telling me it was because the Arian biradri was fed up of being sidelined by Nawaz Sharif's Kashmiris and Ijazul Haq would probably join Azhar soon.
Are there any linguistic differences between the different groups?
To another note, here's an e mail reply from a journalist friend of mine after I forwaded him your article who is very much into studying the various tribal and biradri systems in Pakistan. The observations made are his own, and may be of interest. i am afraid I don't know enough to comment!:):
- There is no real Rajput heartland in Pakistan anymore. What this man calls the Rajput heartland around 'Pindi/Mirpur is actually Gujjar heartland.
- He does not understand that the Gakkhars are NOT, repeat NOT, Rajputs. They are a distinct tribe who claim pre-Islamic Iranian descent. Though they have invented a Kianian king called Kai Gohar as their earliest ancestor and claim that Gakkhar is a corruption of Kai Gohar. I contend that is pure RUBBISH for two reasons. Firstly, it is very difficult to corrupt Kai Gohar to Gakkhar and whoever said this had no clue regarding the mechanics of linguistics. And then, the list of Kianian kings form Persia's heroic age does not contain one called Kai Gohar! That having been said, I will concede that these Gakkhars may be the descendents of some adventurer who came across from Persia at a very remote time in history.
- The Khattars are also not Rajputs. They are Pukhtuns who have lived around Wah and Fatehjang for a very long time and converted to Punjabi - liguisitically speaking, that is. I say this from memory and as I got up to check my Glossary of Tribes, Castes and Clans (Ibbetson, Mclagen and Rose)
- The Wattoos also are Rajputs and not Jatts as our learned writer would have us believe.
- Bangyal of this list (Mirpur) is actually Bogial (Bugial) a sub-clan of the Gakkhars whose eponymous progenitor was one Boga Khan. This makes them not Rajput.
- Any self respecting Jatt will run a knife through you for telling them that the Bhuttas are from among them. They are, in reality, Arains known in Sindh as the Bhuttos.
Zakk could you ask that friend of yours as to what his assessment is of the different groups present in Punjab like Kashmiris, Arains, Jats, Rajputs and Gujjars?
Zaavia; my friend I believe is a Jat, I shall ask him though.
To another point, the biradri issue was never brought up by Punjabi friends of mine in Pakistan, it seems to be a much bigger issue for Pakistani Punjabis settled overseas for the last 20 or more years( specifically the UK as that has been my personal experience).
On another note, where exactly do the Kashmiris and Arians dominate now?
Thanks RF, I was asking because I have a friend who said he’d never marry in an arian girl and everytime I asked what was wrong with them he never gave me a straight answer. The other story I remember , was when the present President of the PML(Q) Mian Azhar started opposing Nawaz Sharif in early 99 some of my friends were telling me it was because the Arian biradri was fed up of being sidelined by Nawaz Sharif’s Kashmiris and Ijazul Haq would probably join Azhar soon.
Welcome 
I think that friend of your is still caught up in old world stereotypes. Yeh, the political front is interesting because Nawaz Sharif’s governments saw the rise of the Lahori Kashmiris, where the adminstration became so localized that even other Lahoris were excluded! I am not quite sure about the Arians being fed up is true.
1. There is no real Rajput heartland in Pakistan anymore. What this man calls the Rajput heartland around 'Pindi/Mirpur is actually Gujjar heartland.
I think that is a completely false statement. Gujars aren’t even a major tribe in Punjab! In fact they are also found in NWFP and Kashmir. It is so well known Punjab consists largely of Rajputs and Jatts. So if one says that Pindi/Mirpur isn’t Rajput heartland then what is?
My family comes from N. Punjab. I have relations settled all through the region, I have seen more Rajputs there than any part of Pakistan! I mean just look at the responses on this thread, all the Rajputs here are from North Punjab. Pakistani military which recruits from this region is heavily Rajput! That statement is so insane that it makes me wonder if that person ever stepped out of the library and talked to actual people.
2. He does not understand that the Gakkhars are NOT, repeat NOT, Rajputs. They are a distinct tribe who claim pre-Islamic Iranian descent. Though they have invented a Kianian king called Kai Gohar as their earliest ancestor and claim that Gakkhar is a corruption of Kai Gohar. I contend that is pure RUBBISH for two reasons. Firstly, it is very difficult to corrupt Kai Gohar to Gakkhar and whoever said this had no clue regarding the mechanics of linguistics. And then, the list of Kianian kings form Persia’s heroic age does not contain one called Kai Gohar! That having been said, I will concede that these Gakkhars may be the descendents of some adventurer who came across from Persia at a very remote time in history
Haha, seriously Zakk, can I speak to this person?? First off Ghakkars are premier Rajputs! Their history is so well recorded that the references include Baburnama, History of Punjab by Col Todd, and many mamy websites (Indian, Pakistani you name it). Ghakkars have tormented invaders from antiquity, how can they be Persian? There WAS no Kinian king Kar Gohar! He was a Ghakkar cheiftein allied with Mahmud of Ghazni. I think your friends lacks even the basic grasp of Ghakkar history, because it is so well known that Ghakkars dominate GHQ in Rawalpindi and they have never denied their Rajput heritage. Punjab was once a province of Persia, but that DOES NOT mean that it gives the license to lie about their background.
3. The Khattars are also not Rajputs. They are Pukhtuns who have lived around Wah and Fatehjang for a very long time and converted to Punjabi - liguisitically speaking, that is. I say this from memory and as I got up to check my Glossary of Tribes, Castes and Clans (Ibbetson, Mclagen and Rose)
This is ridiculous. Check History and Culture of Punjab by Mohinder Singh and The Land of Five Rivers and Sindh by David Rass. Khattars cannot be Pakhtuns because they are not only found in Wah, Fatehjang but also in many parts of East Punjab. Probably 40% of Khattars are non-Muslim, how can they be “Pashtun” tribe that converted?? Exactly what Pashtun tribe did they come from? This sounds all too imaginary and fictious. I know the reference very well and it the survey was done for both Punjab and NWFP, where the author wanted to show the “diversity” of Punjab by making false statements about Khattars. Ask your friend, if he agrees with Rose’s assesment on Hazros and Tarins, if your friend agrees, then I am afraid that his comments have no value whatsoever.
4. The Wattoos also are Rajputs and not Jatts as our learned writer would have us believe.
First off, Wattus have been classified as both Jats and Rajputs depending on the location. As for the author of the article, he has classified Wattus in Sahiwal as Jats, so based on the location he is correct. In other places Wattus may be classified as Rajputs.
5. Bangyal of this list (Mirpur) is actually Bogial (Bugial) a sub-clan of the Gakkhars whose eponymous progenitor was one Boga Khan. This makes them not Rajput.
Bangyals are not sub-tribes of any clans. They are a small tribe on to themselves. Handbook On Rajputs by Cpt A.H. Bingley is a good reference on the Bangyals.
6. Any self respecting Jatt will run a knife through you for telling them that the Bhuttas are from among them. They are, in reality, Arains known in Sindh as the Bhuttos.
There are NO Arian settlements in Sindh! Sindhis are Summa Rajputs and Jats. This is so well documented that Bhuttos of Sindh are Jats that even Benazir wrote about her Jat background in Daughter of Destiny: An Autobiography. If the Bhuttos in Sindh are Arains, then Bhuttas in Punjab are Arains !?! That is complete rubbish because Arains are a tribe on their own being separated from the Rajput/Jat fold a long time ago.
The authors some of the statements are so wildly inaccurate that I was laughing as I was writing the responses. I like to read many different books from various sources, talk to others in the field and if possible, visit the areas myself. The original article was posted in a Punjabi message board, and if the author was as inaccurate as your friend many many people would offended. Ofcourse people like to lie about their “foriegn” background but that doesn’t give them the license to change history. The author of the article and I have communicated periodically on these issues and I have no reason to doubt his statements as many of them have been personally verified by me.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Zaavia; my friend I believe is a Jat, I shall ask him though.
To another point, the biradri issue was never brought up by Punjabi friends of mine in Pakistan, it seems to be a much bigger issue for Pakistani Punjabis settled overseas for the last 20 or more years( specifically the UK as that has been my personal experience).
[/QUOTE]
Zakk, your friend is very much biased against Rajputs. His stereotypes will reflect those biases. Also I wanted to tell you that "biradari" and "tribe/caste" are not the same. Biradari is a very local level sub-tribe discription of people. For example, there might be a Janjua biradari in Rawalpindi, they have a different Biradari than say Bhattis, but both are Rajputs (tribally). A good book to read is "A Pakistani Community in Britain" by Aliison Shaw. It delves deeper into the background of UK Pakistanis.
I'll take a look at the book you mentioned RF, I've forwarded your reply to my friend. I think lol I am going to regret this;), I will probably end up learning more about the biradri system then i intended considering the length of both of your email's/posts lol!
On the plus side, lots of debate and noise is better then none...I'll post his reply when he replies!
Hmm He's not gonna be around for a few weeks.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
I'll take a look at the book you mentioned RF, I've forwarded your reply to my friend. I think lol I am going to regret this;), I will probably end up learning more about the biradri system then i intended considering the length of both of your email's/posts lol!
On the plus side, lots of debate and noise is better then none...I'll post his reply when he replies!
[/QUOTE]
Not a problem Zakk :) Just for the record, your friend is off by a mile. Something that can be equivalent of "Red Indians" (Native Americans) being Indians (East Indians).
The problem with this whole thing is that people interpret things in a way to make them look better or tend to display their biases. On many issues, there is a thin line between classifying a sub-tribe as Rajput/Jat but clearly some sub-tribes are so well known that any changes will be immediately caught. He can take his time, I don't mind the wait :)
Punjabi folks rock :k:
Mere desh ki dharti.....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Mere desh ki dharti.....
[/QUOTE]
Ki hoya, tussi vi ab Punjabi ho?