Are Ahmadis, Qadiyanis and Lahoris one or different?
What is the difference?
[quote]
Originally posted by Jibreel:
"There was a Muslim Rabita council conference that declared the Qadianis non-muslim. The World Muslim League held its annual conference at Makkah, Saudi Arabia from 14th to 18th April 1974 in which 140 delegations of Muslim countries and organizations from all schools of thought and from all over the world participated. The Conference unanimously adopted a resolution declaring Qadianism out of the fold of Islam. It was only after this decision that governments in Pakistan, Yemen, middle East and Africa moved legislation to officially declare these people non-muslim."
[/quote]
Do you have a link to this RABITA unanimous resolution and listing of who the leaders were & their fiqh?
Pakistan at the time was a Parliamentary democracy who went out of its way to amend its constitution to accomodate the clergies.
It could have stood firm and kept the government out of religion. Rather, it did the opposite and in the process allowed a group to become target of discrimination & overt persecuation. It failed to protect the rights of its citizens to equality & honour and is responsible for loss of lives, property & dignity suffered at the hands of the Islamic mullah & their followers.
"Your second point about the christian churches is also mistaken. The roman catholic and protestant churches have over the years declared movements like the mormons and scientoligists non-christians. Following on from these decisions governments in Germany and France have moved legislation to restrict the activities of these groups. "
The christians, unlike Fundamentalist Islam, does not let out an orgy of hate & violenece against those christians with whom they do not agree with.
The mormons, like the lutherans, anglicans are christians who do not belong to the mainstrean Protestant or Catholic is irrelevant. Christianity has many sects & interpretations. The mormons are not restricted in any practise of their faith or ways.
I do not know enough about the Christian scientologists to comment other than some notable americans being members.
[quote]
Originally posted by FlameZz:
Bottom line is that All Ahmadies , Qadiyanies and Lahori are **non Muslim..
Who made YOU God??! Since where in any of the Islamic books does it say that any one has the right to declare people Non-Muslim who call themselves Muslim!?
As far as my information is concerned no Non muslim has been ill trated in Pakistan so far. No ahmadi has been badly treated in Pakistan.
**
[/quote]
Where are your facts? As far as you know there is no ill treatment of Ahmadies, are you all knowing of what goes on in Pakistan?
faceup says: The christians, unlike Fundamentalist Islam, does not let out an orgy of hate & violenece against those christians with whom they do not agree with.
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA LOL ever heard of Ireland? The KKK against Black Churches?
Where do we get these ignorant *******s? :)
just incase you have missed this post… click here and take a glimpse on ahamdis in pakistan
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited February 21, 2002).]
First of all how can you say that scholors from all those Islamic countries were wrong. OK forget about our Mullahs but cmmon not all the repected scholors from around the world are not jahels. Whatever resolution was passed was done by respected scholors of islam. so your point that their combined decision about the declaration is wrong holds no weight.
[This message has been edited by reza khan (edited February 21, 2002).]
First i would like to reply in referance to this quote
is the US now trying to tell us who the muslims r and who the disbelievers r <<
My firmly believe that NO muslim or anyone else has the right to decide who is a muslim and who is not. In my oppinion, any muslim who lables others as muslim or non-muslim, is infact, a heritic himself, or herself as the case maybe. Only God can decide, and only god knows what is in the hearts of man, for anyone else to assume they can do this, judge anothers faith, is tantamount to proclaiming him/herself as god. I have my beliefs, but no one, no fellow human-being, can claim that his faith is superior to mine, or that he is superior to me in anyway for that matter. Only God can be my Judge.
Bottom line is that All Ahmadies , Qadiyanies and Lahori are non Muslim..
As far as my information is concerned no Non muslim has been ill trated in Pakistan so far. No ahmadi has been badly treated in Pakistan. Infact Ahmadies are enjoying Good poss, money in Pakistan. and majority of ahmadies are in CANADA...<<
?Bottom line is that All Ahmadies , Qadiyanies and Lahori are non Muslim..
As far as my information is concerned no Non muslim has been ill trated in Pakistan so far. No ahmadi has been badly treated in Pakistan. Infact Ahmadies are enjoying Good poss, money in Pakistan. and majority of ahmadies are in CANADA...
so whats the problem???
so whats the problem???<<
So whats the problem? Are you kidding me... Where should i start?
First of all, you obviously dont have enough information about ahmadiyat to make such a claim. Unfotunately, you appear to be as ignorant as millions of other Pakistanis whos thinking is dictated by the corrupt political and religious establishment of Pakistan. I can now illustrate the facts concerning the ill treatment of Ahmedis by taking into account personal accounts of my family and others.
In pakistan, Ahmedis have no rights, they are usually at the mercy of the courts and police, who claim to want to uphold human rights but are infact, usually in league with the corrupt mullahs who have more say in the court then the law of the land.
Here are some personal accounts
1.I have a cousine in Rawalpindi, who wanted nothing more that to serve the Pakistan Army.
However, he told me what made him change his mind. He was in college, and one of his professors found out that he was an Ahmedi. The proffesor decided to embarass y cousin in fron of the whole class. He said to the class while my cousine was present that Ahmedis are all Kufars, and to kill and Ahmedi meant instant access into heaven. This incident was so hurtful that my cousine decided it was not worth joining the army. (His father by the is a retired brigadier, he got their prior to the ZA bhutto regime.)
2. Just recently another of cousin tried to enlist in the Army, but was turned down when asked by the registration form relegious affiliation. Being Ahmedi they threw hm out.
I asked him how they could find out if he had chosen not to say he was ahmedi, he said they find out by asking people that know you and your family. If they find out that you lied, you will be court marshled.
3. An distant relative of mine was praying in the mosque (oops, i forgot, an Ahmedi in Pakistan cant call his place of worship a mosque!!)when leaving for home, he along with other Ahmedis were doused with kerosene by a crowd and then harassed by people with matches threatening to light them on fire.
4. In my hometown of duhlmial, a masjid which has belonged to Ahmedis for years and years, and one which has paid for by ahmedis, is now under severe pressure by local sunnis who want the mosgque to be turned over to them.
5. A very distant Sunni relative of mine, went and desacrated the graves of Ahmedis last year. This is a person who was raised along side my uncles like a brother, suddenly, a few words from the indiot molvi and he completely changed his face. There was another incident im my town where a Ahmedi gentleman passed away and the local Sunnis threatened disrupt his Janaza. From what I hear, his wife kept them at bay, standing outside the mosque with a shot gun.
6. I was in Pakistan Last year and was shocked at the level of fear amongst Ahmedis. My fiance's family would dare not utter a word about Ahmadiyat, in fear that their upstairs land lord might hear and kick them out. My cousins tell me they dare not tell their friends they are Ahmedi for fear of what might happen.
7. Lastly, you all know that the only Pakistani to ever get a noble prize was an Ahmedi, and yet his own country refused to acknowledge him... how sad!
Ahmedi's in Pakistan live in fear and embarrasment every day ( and yet they are still proud to call themselves Pakistani, as i am).There are many Ahmedis who have been killed and are languishing in jails for no justifiable reason, and still there is no justice. Lets assume for a second that Ahmedis are not muslim, even then, if an Ahmedi were TO "BECOME A MUSLIM" by reciting the kalma and believing in "La Illaha ilallah, Mohamadur rasoolalla," he would be in violation of the law and could be put in prison, or worse! However, if a christian or Hindu were to do the same thing, infact, a christian OR Hindu could have it printed on his t shirt, people would applaud him for choosing Islam. This is a grave injustice, its simply intitutionalized vindictive hatred of Ahmadiyat.
Whats the problem you ask?
Walk a mile in an Ahmedis shoes, and you will find out...!
[quote]
Originally posted by Bismah:
Who made YOU God??! Since where in any of the Islamic books does it say that any one has the right to declare people Non-Muslim who call themselves Muslim!?
First of All , I'm not GOD. secondly if you give a firm set of rules and points or criteria even to a kid, and ask him to make his conclusion . would you call his conclusion a god ACT ???
Whats the definition of MUSLIMS for the last 13 centuries.. a person who have utmost and complete beleive in the Kalimah which is " La Ilaha Illalaho Muhammad Rasool Allah"... TWO signification parts in this Kalimah, the base of being a Muslim.
there are 5 rules or criterias to be muslims, defined by Prophet Muhamamd (SAW) and anonemously agreed by all the muslims all over the world
1: belive in OneNess of Allah
2:Believe in the finality of ProphetHood on Muahmmad (SAW)
3:Beleive on the day of ressecuction
4:Believe on the all Divine Books which are in 5 Number, and last one is QURAN which was instated on Prophet Muhammad (SAW)
5:Bleeive on the saints (malaikha)
and these criterias are unquestionable all over the world by Muslims..if you fulfil these criterias YOu are Entitied as Muslim...
judge your self on these criterias lady. and dont argue..
As far as my information is concerned no Non muslim has been ill trated in Pakistan so far. No ahmadi has been badly treated in Pakistan.
**
[/quote]
Where are your facts? As far as you know there is no ill treatment of Ahmadies, are you all knowing of what goes on in Pakistan?
**
[/QUOTE]
Ill present facts dont worry. and I am specifically talkin about Pakitan, because this entire Thread is related to the Anti Ahmadi blasphemy law of Paksitan.
Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
Thanks for the reference..
And im not in favor of killing Innocent people.
Laws all over the world are made to protect innocent people, but in most cases they are utilized for peronal gains. Its sad and wrong that Few Mullahs used the law to destruct the property of Ahmadi’s in the history. and i condemn this..
Dont think “you can” know “you can”
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
**First i would like to reply in referance to this quote
is the US now trying to tell us who the muslims r and who the disbelievers r <<
My firmly believe that NO muslim or anyone else has the right to decide who is a muslim and who is not. In my oppinion, any muslim who lables others as muslim or non-muslim, is infact, a heritic himself, or herself as the case maybe. Only God can decide, and only god knows what is in the hearts of man, for anyone else to assume they can do this, judge anothers faith, is tantamount to proclaiming him/herself as god. I have my beliefs, but no one, no fellow human-being, can claim that his faith is superior to mine, or that he is superior to me in anyway for that matter. Only God can be my Judge.**
[/quote]
I belevie disntinction should be made betweeen ahmadies and Muslims,l because i have seen many web sites and people who are befooling the world saying that they are Muslims. This should be implemented to safe guard the propper Islam, although which is not anymore there. But to prevent further distortion of ISLAM this step is necessary. Because its the ultimate Aim of Jews to Distort Islam in such a way that people might start taking Islam in a diffrent way. which is totally contradictory from what ISlam 14 centuries ago..
and Jews are to extreme extent are cucessfull by introducing Ahmadiyaism, ismalieism, and other ppl..
and my friend, no one can judge the faith of other people, its just we are judging what you people are saying all over the world, preaching your own ideas in name of ISLAM, Altering Islamic idealogy... which is wrong....
and moreover If i refer to a Quran ayah , in which Allah has called jews, christians non muslims by providing reasons, would you say that im GOD??? naah.. same in this case... Im just saying that Judging by the criterias provided by Quran and Hadith Ahmadism goes out of the fold of ISLAM...
thats all..
Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
Yaar Flame, Khuda da na lay bhai.
What do you call if somebody put you behind the bars because you said Assalama Alaykum.
What do you call if somebody put entire family behind bar because they wrote Bismillah on their wedding invitation card including a 6 month old Infant because his name was there under RSVP list.
How about digging the bodies out of graves and throw them out side.
.
.
.
.
See you....
And your point is..
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Digging bodies out of graves ?? am i doing this or the bid daddy of Musharraf doing this??
Dont think “you can” know “you can”
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
?and my friend, no one can judge the faith of other people, its just we are judging what you people are saying all over the world, preaching your own ideas in name of ISLAM, Altering Islamic idealogy... which is wrong....<<<
Here again my self rightous friend, your ignorance prevails... What Ahmedis are saying do not in any way conflict with Mainstream Islam. The differnce is that Ahmedis believe in the Imam Mehdi, the coming of whom was foretold within the Koran.
Ahmedis do not have new Koran, I know because i have compared korans from ahmedis with those of sunnis and the are exactly the same,(incidently, had i found any difference
i would have turned my back on ahmdiyat aswell).
Ahmedis do not have a different prayer.
Infact, Ahmedis pray the same exact way as
sunnis, i know because have prayed in both Ahmedi and Sunni mosques.
Ahmedis DO belive in the finality of the prophet hood.They do believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)was the last prophet and that no other prophet can come after him, this two i know for a fact. The simply believe that the Imam mehdi has come and they are firm believers in him.
Lastly, i have never in my life heard any ahmedi denounce the teachings Islam in any way. Ahmedi are in general very intelligent people, many of whom are doctors engineers,
business men. They are just as intelligent as, and yet they are Ahmedi, what did they some how overlook all these accusations that you claim are inherint of ahmdiyat?
Now how in the world can Ahmedis be doing any thing even close to what you accuse them of. The only thing they are guilty of is converting people to Islam.
You claim that Ahmadiyt is a creation of the Jews...
Thats typical statement of Muslims who are to lazy, both physically and mentally to understand the beliefs of others. When you fail to accept your own faults, its easy to blame others.
The only difference between Ahmedis and the rest of Islam, is that Ahmedi mullahas dont preach hatred for others, they dont go around labeling everyone as Kufar (dont get me wrong, not all mainstream mullahs are bad, but they can be venomouse).
My advice to you is this, If you truly want to be knowledgeable, if you truly want to be able to make any legitimate claims, you have to go out and speak to people yourself, same way i have gone out and spoken with Sunnis and Shias.
Dont go to websites, any Tom Dick And Abdhullah can make a website, so they aren't allways a good place for factual info (my college doesn't even accept many internet sites as citations for this reason).