[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
"Extensive" intelligence ? That's beginning to sound like an oxymoron.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, and notice the lack of condemnation for this barbaric attack by the American's? Just the excuses and diversions.
Exactamundo UTD. The problem with these folks is that for eons they have placed the blame for their failures on others. First it was the corrupt Ottomans, then the corrupt feisel, then the colonizers, then America. After a period of time I think they will run out of peole to blame, what will happen then.. 
BTW/there are 3 posts in your thread on the Pakistani engineer that was killed by Talibani sympathizers. Talk about condemnations and excuses… 
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by underthedome: *
**As far as catching Saddam and Bin Laden that would be a nice feeling but short lived.*
[/quote]
"Nice" feeling? It was a pledge by Messrs. Bush et Blair. We will not rest until we sniff them out, from every hole they are hiding in - blah blah blah, in the words of Rummy. How easily people forget.
[quote]
And while the search for them will go on so will the search for those who want to kill people like Sarah Chayes of Afghans for a Civil Society, who’s just trying to help bring back a society that's been missing for so long.
[/QUOTE]
That's why perhaps we need an even larger, international force in the country that can do more than the current forces guarding the 3 feet of space around Karzai's desk.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
That's why perhaps we need an international force in the country that can do more than the current forces guarding the 3 feet of space around Karzai's desk.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. Currently 2000 U.S. troops are engaged in an operation along Afghanistan’s mountainous border with a goal of 'rooting out insurgents' so that Karzai can step away from that desk.
Blaming who Matty? Did the US bombs kill these children or not? No one here is blaming US for the ills that ail Muslims through out the world. Just trying to point out that there are apologists out there who will come up with every excuse imaginable to divert the attention from this tragic incident. Maybe its high time people begin to accept the responsibility and say they screwed up and will like to apoloize to the families of those affected…“maybe next time we will do what we said we will do” (Rumsfeld).
No one made excuses for the horrible mistake that led to the death of these poor kids. the point is that it is a mistake. It is not the norm or intentional act. Unlike the intentional targetting and killing of the Pakistani engineer by the very people US is hunting. DO you see the difference? When idiots blow up buses and mosques and synogogues in muslims countries they do it because they do not like their gov't stance against terror and their partnership with the US in this effort. Are you going to tell me that Pakistan is wrong in being aligned with the US?
You can either do nothing and have let these peolpe take over afhanistan, breed fundamentalist thought that is responsible for killing as many pakistanis as it does Indians and jews and others or do something about it. This is not a short term affair. this is a long drawn out war against a mindset and thinking. The sooner people start recognizing that this scourge of fundamentalism is erased, the sooner the war would end.
Matty,
It's useless dude.
No one here REALLY believes that the US soldiers intentionally targeted kids. No American wants kids killed. There are really a few key issues here:
First, was someone negligent, or incompetant? If so, hang 'em, send them to Leavenworth, and deal with them.
Second, why was there an intelligence failure, and what could have been done to prevent this?
Third, there are those here on Gupshup who simply revel in the failures of the US.
Fourth, the Anti-US press has made a reputation on broadcasting every incident where it can blame the US, while never criticising, and indeed glamorizing "resistance" movements that intentionally target civilians.
Fifth, many people, with no grasp of history, believe that wars are bloodless affairs, and that perfection is expected. The wars that the US has fought recently, when compared to the losses incurred in other conflicts, are a small fraction of the military and civilian casualties of prior wars.
Sixth, there are those here on Gupshup that truely believe that wars should never be fought, that miraculously freedom will blossom, if only the US stops supporting bad people.
Seven, there are Islamists who believe that democracy, liberty, and capitalism should be replaced by strict Islamic regimes. They see the US as a prime competitor for their dominion, and revel in any failure, or percieved weakness.
Eight, the Mulllah who had been targeted had publically claimed responsibility for the killings of aid workers, and is suspected in the kidnapping of Indian Road workers. Certainly no angel.
In short, any accident, failure, mistake or bumble will be painted in the worst possible light. This was a horrible error. Absolutely horrible. It is not indicative of anything larger, nor should it be cynically manipulated for someones Anti-US political agenda.
Don't put yourselves down gentlemen the US is doing a great job in killing in the absence of the Taliban. They are a true replacement in every sense of the word.....maybe a lot more indiscriminate but that's to be expected not knowing the local customs etc.
They’ll settle down into a more regular killing pattern before long, after all this is only a few months into the campaign, the murder and cleansing will be a lot more efficient in years to come.
So instead of being all morbid about it, give yourselves a pat on the back and put together some nice festive food aid parcels for the troops be sure to add the opening instructions for any canned goods...don't want them starving over the holiday period!
Every country the Nazis invaded, they hailed to the world that they were victors and that they had 'liberated' the country...Fliers were dropped by the propaganda machine from planes in Poland and France decrying how the French and Polacks had truly been 'liberated' and that the dawn of a new day awaited them...
At that time the Germans were elated to be part of the 'greatest nation on earth' and that one day the mighty German empire's rule of law will manifest itself over all people, much like what America wants to do with democracy...Introduce it at the barrel of a gun...
The fighters who were in the resistance were declared enemy of the German reich and were repeatedly tortured and killed...You can look at cartoons on the net drawn by German artists depicting the French and Polacks as a race of uncivilized brutes which the German Reich had come to enlighten...
Those who fought the Germans were labelled as 'insurgents' (We have a new word now, 'terrorists'), and routinely entire villages and towns were searched house by house in order to 'sniff out' these insurgents...
Yet the 'insurgents' had full support from the populace and were loved dearly by them...
The Taliban were and are still beloved by the people of Afghanistan for bringing security and tranquility in an otherwise ravaged piece of land...American media and propaganda may drop fliers and paint pictures of the Taliban as a hardline, fundamentalist regime but the truth is known by the Afghanis...
No matter what the American media portrays about the Talibs, the world is now seeing America nothing more than the Fourth Reich...Although many Americans don't like being called Nazis, but if you walk like a monkey and do a good enough job of it, chances are people will mistake you for one...
Hmmm, yes, out comes the spin wizards. The Taliban, brought peace and security to Afghanistan. At what cost? Harboring OBL? Just a bunch of misunderstood nice guys?
And Nazi's? You guys love this crap. Ask the Japanese if they are better off now, or under Imperial Japan. Is Germany better off once the allies REMOVED the Nazis? Who else fought communism, a completely godless state? Calling the Israeli's and the US Nazi's may appeal to your political agenda, but the historical analogy is weak at best.
The commonality you are seeking is that the Nazi's, Saddam, the Taliban, as well as many Islamic States are that they are repressive, totalitarian, dictatorial regimes that achieve "peace" by subjugating the population, commiting unspeakable horrors on their people, and claiming religious superiority.
Perhaps you were swayed by Saddam's voting where he got 99% of the electorate? The Taliban certainly were tolerant enough that virtually all NGO's had been ejected from the country.
Tragedies such as the one we are discussing are horrible, but the US has no designs on Afghanistan. We do not wish their riches (what riches?) nor a colonial state. We do not wish it to lapse back into a haven for Islamic extremeists, who used it as a base for thier attacks on us. That is our only goal. Beyond that, the people af Afghanistan will have to make thier own choices about the quality of thier lives.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by underthedome: *
**I agree. Currently 2000 U.S. troops are engaged in an operation along Afghanistan’s mountainous border with a goal of 'rooting out insurgents' so that Karzai can step away from that desk.
[/QUOTE]
*
How long have US troops been stationed in Afghanistan? When did the first strikes initiate - first week of October 2001. How long have they been "rooting out insurgents"? That's all we hear - a raid in the mountainous region, rooting out insurgents, five "militants" killed, heavy fighting reported, a few mines blowing up limbs here and there. Last time i checked, Dostum and other warlords were still happily clinging to power. The country's more of a basketcase than it ever was, and if anyone thinks Afghans are singing songs of praise for Americans or the 'west' in general, forget it. We've managed to lose bin Laden and haven't captured him in two years, managed to increase poppy sales, and managed to blow up entire families in their villages - all the while "President" Karzai is sitting glued to his armoured jeep lest some sniper shoot him while he dares to walk outside unescorted. All in all, the 'war against terrorism' hasn't contributed much to regional or international stability.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
The Taliban will continue to be hunted down and taken out
[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the Taliban don't respond to a moose call. We need intel to identify them, good intel. We don't have it and that right there is why we are still running heavy combat operations 2 years in.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Hmmm, yes, out comes the spin wizards. The Taliban, brought peace and security to Afghanistan. At what cost? Harboring OBL? Just a bunch of misunderstood nice guys?
And Nazi's? You guys love this crap. Ask the Japanese if they are better off now, or under Imperial Japan. Is Germany better off once the allies REMOVED the Nazis? Who else fought communism, a completely godless state? Calling the Israeli's and the US Nazi's may appeal to your political agenda, but the historical analogy is weak at best.
The commonality you are seeking is that the Nazi's, Saddam, the Taliban, as well as many Islamic States are that they are repressive, totalitarian, dictatorial regimes that achieve "peace" by subjugating the population, commiting unspeakable horrors on their people, and claiming religious superiority.
Perhaps you were swayed by Saddam's voting where he got 99% of the electorate? The Taliban certainly were tolerant enough that virtually all NGO's had been ejected from the country.
**Tragedies such as the one we are discussing are horrible, but the US has no designs on Afghanistan. We do not wish their riches (what riches?) nor a colonial state. We do not wish it to lapse back into a haven for Islamic extremeists, who used it as a base for thier attacks on us. **That is our only goal. Beyond that, the people af Afghanistan will have to make thier own choices about the quality of thier lives.
[/QUOTE]
Oh my OG...Don't tell me you don't know about the almost 30 billion barrels of oil in the Caspian and Halliburton wanting it in their plush little hands?
And where was this great American altruism when Pol Pot was butchering 1.5 million of his own people in Cambodia through the Khmer Rouge and displacing millions of others?
I am telling you...Germans loved their country so much they were blinded by their adoration for it...And come hell or high water, the Reich reigned supreme...
You can hate me for it, but I don;t see a difference between America and Nazi Germany...Just languages have changed...
Deutschland uber alles...America will prevail...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
I have a hard time designating the term ‘people’ to those that would routinely take women to an internationally funded sport stadium and publicly execute them for teaching a child how to read or some other insane rule that they broke.
[/quote]
I have a harder time designating the term "people" to those who routinely murder innocent little children with high tech weapons and then shrug their shoulders afterwards.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
No one here REALLY believes that the US soldiers intentionally targeted kids. No American wants kids killed. There are really a few key issues here:
[/quote]
Right, they'd rather have them tied up and tortured in the desert heat in their underwear. Oh, such brave troops.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
You can hate me for it, but I don;t see a difference between America and Nazi Germany...Just languages have changed...
[/QUOTE]
The Germans weren't retarded.
**Six Afghan Children Killed in U.S. Attack **
14 minutes ago
By STEPHEN GRAHAM, Associated Press Writer
KABUL, Afghanistan - Six children were crushed to death by a collapsing wall during an assault by U.S. forces on a compound stuffed with weapons in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), an American military spokesman said Wednesday, the second time in a week that civilians have died in action against Taliban and al-Qaida suspects.
The children died during a night attack Friday against a complex in Paktia province where a renegade Afghan commander, Mullah Jalani, kept a huge cache of weapons, said Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty.
**
“The next day we discovered the bodies of two adults and six children,” he said. “We had no indication there were noncombatants” in the compound.
**
Jalani was not at the site, 20 kilometers (12 miles) east of Gardez, but Hilferty said nine other people were arrested. He did not identify the adults that were killed or say whether they were combatants or civilians.
Hilferty said U.S. warplanes and troops attacked the compound, setting off secondary explosions.
Hilferty expressed regret over the death of civilians in Afghanistan, but said it was impossible to completely eliminate such incidents.
**
“We try very hard not to kill anyone. We would prefer to capture the terrorists rather than kill them,” Hilferty said. “But in this incident, if noncombatants surround themselves with thousands of weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition and howitzers and mortars in a compound known to be used by a terrorist, we are not completely responsible for the consequences.”
**
There was no word of U.S. casualties in the operation.
It was unclear if the wall was knocked down by troops searching for weapons or the secondary explosions. Hilferty said it was still too dangerous to search the whole site.
The U.S. military, which launched Dec. 2 what it describes as its biggest operation against militants since the fall of the Taliban two years ago, says it found hidden storage compartments containing hundreds of 107mm rockets, mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, anti-tank and anti-personnel mines and several howitzers at the compound.
The news comes on the heels of a tragic U.S. military blunder in neighboring Ghazni province on Saturday. Nine children were found dead in a field after an attack by an A-10 ground attack aircraft that was targeting a Taliban suspect.
U.S. officials have apologized for that incident. They originally claimed that the attack killed the intended target, a former Taliban district commander named Mullah Wazir suspected of recent attacks on road workers. But U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad on Tuesday said they were no longer certain.
Villagers say the man killed was a local laborer who had just returned from Iran and that Mullah Wazir had left the area days before the attack.
The Ghazni deaths produced outrage and concern, from Afghan villagers to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites), who said he was “profoundly saddened” by the deaths and urged a full investigation. Afghan officials warned that such mistakes will undermine support for the U.S.-backed government of President Hamid Karzai and tolerance of foreign troops.
**
“I can’t guarantee that we will not injure more civilians,” Hilferty said. “I wish I could.”
**
Under its new Operation Avalanche, involving about 2,000 troops across the south and east of the country, the U.S. military began an air assault in Khost province along the mountainous border with Pakistan.
Hilferty said less than 100 troops took part — far less than suggested Tuesday — and had no information on any combat or casualties.
six more killed by the USA terrorists and amazingly they don’t feel responsible for their deaths. each and every innocent civilian killed by the hands of these USA terrorists was a just death.
something on these very similar lines…
**
The Oil Connection: Afghanistan and Caspian Sea oil pipeline routes
**
Don’t think there is a connection between Afghanistan and the oil monopolies? Think again. The information contained in these partial Department of Energy reports are current as of September 2001. You can read the complete texts at http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspian.html and http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html. This story could be bigger than the Pentagon Papers if it were discovered that the “war on terrorism” were an excuse to end Afghanistan’s civil war in order to secure the Southern route of an oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan. In 1998, the Taliban signed an agreement to proceed with the pipeline, but the civil war has kept the project from getting started.
*
http://www.newhumanist.com/oil.html
just do a simple search on google and you’ll understand the significance of afghanistan in all this war on terrorism.
more on caspian sea, oil, karzai and USA connection.
http://www.kstatecollegian.com/stories/012802/opi_white.shtml
as you search more and more, its getting better and better.
Yes tragic, indeed. Atleast US admitted their mistake.
How many afghan children were killed during drought in Taliban regime?
how many of them were put to death, just coz they were children of taziks, uzbecs or irani shiites? How many times have you heard taliban regreting it?
Today, we know of this, coz media is allowed freely to carry stories happening in afghanistan, thanx to US. There was a time..gud damn ten twenty years...when nothing like this could be freely reported from the terrorist infested land of afghans. If a reporter of BBC was caught taking photographs, he would have paid with his life.
Appreciate, you get to stay in US and have freedom to even critize it.
This same would have been a crime in your so called islamic paradises.