UN report: Israeli fence is "illegal"

Well, who’s really surprised. Now let’s get our excuses and apologies out to criticize this UN report.

Israel’s West Bank barrier ‘illegal’, BBC, 30 September 2003

A United Nations human rights investigator has denounced a controversial barrier Israel is building in the West Bank as illegal.

John Dugard, a South African law professor, said the wall was tantamount to an “unlawful act of annexation” which should be condemned by the international community.

Israel, which says it is building the wall to stop suicide bombers crossing from Palestinian areas, dismissed the findings as “one-sided, highly politicised and biased”.

The report by the special investigator comes a day before the Israeli Cabinet is due to decide on the route of the next stage of construction. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said the fence will be built around two Jewish settlements - Ariel and Kedumim - reaching deep into the West Bank.

The Palestinians have described the fence as a “Berlin Wall”, which traps some Palestinian towns and villages and has cut off farmers from their land.

America has also raised objections and are considering withholding loan guarantees to Israel in line with the money the Israelis spend on the barrier.

In his report for the UN Commission on Human Rights, Mr Dugard warned that the wall would incorporate “substantial areas” of the West Bank into Israel.

Israel’s Security barrier:
245 km (150-mile) long
3m high
150 km built so far

“The evidence strongly suggests that Israel is determined to create facts on the ground amounting to de facto annexation,” the report said.

**He said about 210,000 Palestinians living in the area between the wall and Israel, would be cut off from social services, schools and places of work.

“This is likely to lead to a new generation of refugees or internally displaced people,” he said.

Mr Dugard said Israel’s security concerns “cannot be denied”, but said “some limit must be placed on the violation of human rights in the name of counter-terrorism”.**

Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Yaakov Levy, rejected the report as politically motivated. Of course :rolleyes: ] “The report totally disregards the context of continuous violence directed against Israeli civilians,” he said.

Hundreds of Israelis have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers who have walked from Palestinian areas into Israeli towns over the past nine years. Israel has insisted the fence, which will eventually stretch about 225 kilometres (140 miles) is a temporary measure and says it has endeavoured to minimise disruption to Palestinians living in the area.

Zalman Shoval, an advisor to Ariel Sharon, said the next stage of the fence will incorporate Ariel and other settlements but that gaps will be left in the fence.

well building of the fence will go ahead as planned. UN can shove this report up its behind. israel does not care what UN or world thinks. as long as USA is not upset or angry, all is well :)

Israel to expand security barrier

Israel says it needs the fence to protect it from Palestinian attacks
The Israeli cabinet has approved the next phase of a controversial fence it is building in the West Bank to stop Palestinian suicide bombers.
The new fence will not be immediately connected to the barrier built so far, as a concession to Israel’s main ally, the US.

However, sections will be built around several Jewish settlements in the heart of the West Bank.

The US administration said its view on the fence as problematic had not changed, but he fell short of any detailed criticism of Israel’s latest decision.

The Israeli cabinet decision comes a day after a United Nations report condemned the barrier as illegal and tantamount to “an unlawful act of annexation”.

Earlier, the Israeli army reportedly killed a member of the radical Palestinian group Islamic Jihad and detained another in separate raids in the West Bank.

Palestinian sources said Mazen al-Badawi was killed by Israeli troops in Tulkarm, while Bassam Saadi was captured when a large group of soldiers, supported by two helicopter gunships, swept into a Jenin refugee camp.

Gaps Certainly [the fence] has to pass east of Ariel, but in a manner which will not antagonise the population of the territories

The next section of the Israeli fence, which will be 45 kilometres (28 miles) long, is being built further east and will be deeper in the West Bank than other sections built so far.

The most contested issue in planning the next segment was whether the barrier would incorporate Ariel, the West Bank’s second-largest Jewish settlement with a population of 18,000.

“Certainly it has to pass east of Ariel, but in a manner which will not antagonise the population of the territories and which will be in coordination with the agreements we have with the US Government,” Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said.

The Israeli cabinet has decided to leave gaps in the fence to be patrolled by troops.

The issue will be discussed with the Americans again in the middle of next year, and only then will a decision be taken on whether to close the gaps and make the final connection.

US President George Bush has in the past described the barrier as a problem.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher Mr Boucher said on Wednesday that Washington would closely look at Israel’s latest decision.

“It remains our long-standing policy to oppose activities by either party in the West Bank and Gaza that prejudge final status negotiations,” he said.

“We are continuing to discuss our concerns with the government of Israel.”

The US is considering withholding loan guarantees to Israel to the value of the cost of any sections of wall the US considers unnecessary.

Palestinians have reacted angrily to the cabinet’s decision. They say the decision to build a fence on Palestinian land is theft and will threaten the viability of a future Palestinian state.

About 11,000 Palestinians live in the area between the two barriers and their lives are likely to become more difficult as a result of the fences, says the BBC’s Jannat Jalil in Jerusalem.

Senior figure

Bassam Saadi had become the effective leader of Islamic Jihad in the West Bank, after the detention or killing of other senior members of the group last year.

Islamic Jihad has carried out a large number of attacks that have killed hundreds of Israelis in recent years.

Local witnesses said that Mr Saadi was found hiding under a car outside a mosque, by soldiers with sniffer dogs.

Another 14 Palestinians were taken into Israeli custody overnight, after raids near Nablus, Ramallah and Hebron.

Israeli forces also entered Qalqilya early on Wednesday, and imposed a curfew in the town.

UN should just let israel do whatever it wants to do. there is no need to waste time as israel won’t listen to anyone. big papa USA is always there to safe its behind and surely will do its part this time aswell :slight_smile:

Actually, I don't see the wall as such a bad thing.. The griping about it is good, but they should just focus to get Israel to not close out Palestinian communities from the rest of the territory and social services. Other than that, really, it could be a good thing. If for no other reason than giving the Is/Pal debate a tangible point to center on.. it'd (hopefully) get people off all thier impractical loony talk and give them something to actually think about. Plus the side-effects of a wall could create a calmer atmosphere amongst the publics there (if Arafat, etc weren't whipping the poor Pals into a mindless frenzy).

There is an old say in Israel….

If Arabs give up arms there will be peace, but if Jews give up arms there will be no Israel.

Spoon, Thank you for your reply :flower1: :slight_smile: Do you think it is possible, i wonder, to complete this barrier’s construction without closing off communities from needed social services and, as the UN report mentions, annexing Palestinian land and thereby creating facts on the ground? The way it has developed now, the barrier (i think) does already annex Palestinian land: …210,000 Palestinians living in the area between the wall and Israel, would be cut off from social services, schools and places of work. This reminds me, again, of the Afrikaan government’s policies in South Africa. If annexation of land, and creating enclosed communities where people are cut off from social services and their places of work - then isn’t all that a violation of human rights? i like your statement that criticisms should focus upon Israel not doing all of this, but i think the parts of the barrier that have been already constructed, have already created annexation. It’s beyond the point of negotiations now whether or not the barrier ‘should’ do this; it has already been implemented. i am afraid that more than likely, whatever parts of the barrier are left to construct, will also be annexing further Palestinian lands.

Quite rightly said. If anyone expects any righteousness out of the Jews, he is wrong. Its Allah who has asked us in the Quran to safeguard against them. They were a menace back then, when Quran was revealed on the Holy Prophet (saw), and they are no less a trouble now...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yahudi: *
There is an old say in Israel….

If Arabs give up arms there will be peace, but if Jews give up arms there will be no Israel.
[/QUOTE]

Very respectfully, i disagree. Righteous Jews are less of a "menace" than non-righteous Muslims.

Sorry, to be so foggy.. I agree with what you said, I just meant that it wouldn't be bad in theory.. y'know, if both sides actually carried things through rationally, but then if they were capable of that we wouldnt be talking about all this.

There's still hope for the Palestinians.. just think what the IDF would do to any structure they don't like.. plus there's no Jewish baby's near that wall. More unintended flypaper?

I think for at least the freedom fighters (as opposed to the baby killers) this could be a good thing. It's a legitimate target. The more the rest of the world hears about Pals being killed at the wall instead of killing in markets, the more they will sympathise and it would truly demonize the IDF (there wouldnt be much of an argument other than a hollow "security" mantra). Problem is, journalists will have to work harder because I think the IDF is aware of this potential PR problem and would be reluctant to announce attacks on the wall.

Just like two wrongs don't make a right, we cannot justify a bad deed from a Muslim just because a jew also does that. Everyone will be answerable in front of Allah for his own deeds.

However, there is nothing right remaining afer one denies "the truth" (does kufr). Do you think Allah can forgive someone who has denied His very orders? Certainly not, because Allah Himself points out in Quran:

English (Yusuf Ali):
40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and "is a Believer"- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

Not that I want to justify any "menace" created by any non-righteous Muslim, but still they are better human beings as compared to a righteous Jew or any non-Muslim. Its because, a Muslim, no matter how bad he is, atleast conforms to the basic teachings of Allah and His Prohet (saw) and respects them. It is far more easier to correct him. On the other hand, a person who plainly denies these teachings, is much worse. No matter how much good he does for the humanity, it cannot make a difference for the "Kufr" that he has commited. For such a person, Allah will only reward him for his good deeds in "this" life. However, there is no forgiveness for him on the day of judgement. (see the above verse from Quran)

Having said all that, it is foolish to be content on the present situation of the Muslim Ummah and to do nothing about the diseases that are eating us from within and outside. We have to go a long way ...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
Very respectfully, i disagree. Righteous Jews are less of a "menace" than non-righteous Muslims.
[/QUOTE]

Israel to expand settlement

**
Israel has launched a tender for the construction of 550 new homes in Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
Almost all the houses will be built in the ultra-Orthodox settlement of Beitar Elit, near Jerusalem.
**
The announcement comes a day after the government agreed plans to build protective fences around several West Bank settlements.
**
About 220,000 Israelis live in the West Bank, in settlements widely regarded as illegal under international law.

The Israeli housing ministry says this decision is part of its policy to create more housing across the whole of Israel, not just the occupied territories.
**

It was, according to a spokesman, intended “to develop the communities in accordance with their needs and natural growth”.
**
Despite international laws banning settlement in occupied areas, Jewish settlement building has expanded continually since Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, increasing rapidly in the late 1970s when the current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was housing minister.

The pressure group Peace Now said the latest decision showed the housing ministry was acting as “a master planner for the settlers”.

Housing Minister Effi Eitam is a member of the far-right National Religious Party, which has close links with the settlers.
**

Fence appeal

The Palestinian Authority has appealed to the nations that backed the now-stalled roadmap peace plan to stop any extension of the fence through the West Bank, because it will cut off Palestinian villages and towns from other Palestinian areas.

The main backer of that peace plan, the United States, had expressed concern, so for now Israel is not going to join up the new section with the old.
**
But the BBC’s Jannat Jalil - reporting from Jerusalem - says many Palestinians are worried that Israel will delay the move until US President George W Bush is distracted by his re-election campaign.
**

Good, ramyssysIX, you are not a hypocrite.
Otherwise the hypocrite scholars of Islam try their best to misguide the world.

A Muslim is no doubt super, whatever he is, and he is super to any human non-Muslim, the all total disbeliever community.

Ramyssys, Well, we could take this discussion to the Religon Forum if you want as i fear i am derailing this thread. i don't mind opening a new thread in the Religion Forum to discuss that. For now i'll only state that i agree with this part of your reply:

[quote]
*it is foolish to be content on the present situation of the Muslim Ummah and to do nothing about the diseases that are eating us from within and outside. We have to go a long way ... *
[/quote]

Thats ok, I have said all that I wanted to. May Allah enable everyone of us to differentiate between the right and the wrong, Ameen!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
**Ramyssys
*, Well, we could take this discussion to the Religon Forum if you want as i fear i am derailing this thread. i don't mind opening a new thread in the Religion Forum to discuss that. For now i'll only state that i agree with this part of your reply:

[/QUOTE]

I thought it was important to remind everyone whats happening in the Palestinian territories. An ILLEGAL Berlin style wall has been erected by Israel as as part of its ethnic cleansing policies against the Arabs, in order to destroy any chance of a unified Palestinian State from becoming reality. A case against Israel has now been raised at the Hague..

Arab League to The Hague: Security fence is a vioation of humanitarian law](The Jerusalem Post - All News from the Middle East, Israel, and the Jewish World) Jerusalem Post 08 Feb 04

The Arab League will accuse Israel of violating the Geneva Conventions on human rights by building a barrier along the Palestinian territories during hearings at the International Court of Justice later this month, the organization’s top official said Sunday. In an interview with The Associated Press, Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa said the 22-member organization will argue that the suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people by dividing their towns and villages breaks international law. The United Nations General Assembly has asked the court, the U.N.'s highest judiciary, for a so-called advisory opinion on “the legal consequences of the barrier.” Although its position won’t be binding, a week of public hearings scheduled to start Feb. 23 could have important consequences for international opinion on the barrier.

“This opinion will be broadcast and known to everybody and, let us see, if international law is not to be respected, we will have to draw our own conclusions,” Moussa said from his office in downtown Cairo. Israel says the barrier, a 710-kilometer (440-mile) complex of trenches, fences, concrete walls, razor wire and electronic sensors, is intended to protect its citizens from suicide bombers. The Palestinians call it a land grab that will disrupt tens of thousands of lives.

The Arab League is among more than 40 organizations and nations that have already filed written arguments with the court in its highest profile case since it considered the legality of nuclear weapons in 1996. Other participants in this case include Jordan, the United States, Russia and Israel. The Palestinian Authority has been allowed to submit arguments even though it is not a recognized state, and the court also accepted submissions from the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference.

**“Our position is based on international law, with a special reference to international humanitarian law that governs territories under occupation,” Moussa said. “The successive Israeli governments have refused to apply the Fourth Geneva Convention to the occupied territories, therefore there is a legal point here.” The Fourth Geneva Convention aims to ensure the protection of civilians during war or under occupation. ** …

Rights groups tell Israeli supreme court ‘immoral’ security fence breaks local and international law

Legal bid to block West Bank barrier](Legal bid to block West Bank barrier | Palestine | The Guardian) Guardian 10 Feb 04

**Israeli human rights groups yesterday asked the country’s supreme court to stop the construction of a vast “security fence” through the West Bank, on the grounds that it breaches international and Israeli law and creates a form of apartheid. They argued that Ariel Sharon’s government had spun a legal web to justify the “intolerable, illegal and immoral” barrier. The state responded by acknowledging that the steel and concrete wall had disrupted the lives of many Palestinians. It surrounds some villages and cuts tens of thousands of people off from their land, jobs and schools. **

The state said it would make changes to the route to reduce their hardship, but defended the 370-mile fence, about a quarter of which has been completed, as a legal and necessary defence against suicide bombers. Yesterday’s hearing came two weeks before the international court of justice at The Hague is scheduled to judge a UN challenge to the barrier. Many of the same arguments are expected to be heard, although the Israeli government has yet to announce whether it will participate in the Netherlands hearings, after submitting a brief, backed by the US, Britain and EU, claiming that the world court does not have jurisdiction in a “political” case.

One of the human rights groups at the Israeli supreme court yesterday, the Centre for the Defence of the Individual (HaMoked), argued that the government’s declarations and military orders given for the construction of the fence breached international laws governing occupied land, and Israeli legislation, because of the unnecessary hardship imposed on Palestinians. “The physical injury to the inhabitants of the enclaves goes hand in hand with the corruption of the law designed to administer the seam zone (1967 border),” it said. “The web of the declaration and the orders has spun, in the seam zone, a legal apartheid which is intolerable, illegal and immoral. In other words, the discriminatory and oppressive topographical structure stands upon a shameful, normative infrastructure, unprecedented in Israeli law.” …

But could the Wall be beneficial of keeping suicide bombers out of Israel and also.....keeping Israeli tanks out of Palestine Territories?

DHP:
Interesting but totally inappropriate analogy to the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was erected by a government to keep its own people from getting out. The Israelis are building a wall to keep from having enemies get in.

Now that distinction may or may not be relevant to the legality of building the wall. But, it is a distinction of some significance in evaluating motivations.

No wall, however tall and no military however powerful will save the demographically-doomed zionist entity from what is inevitable over the coming decade or so. Just look at what happened to apartheid South Africa. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
DHP:
Interesting but totally inappropriate analogy to the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was erected by a government to keep its own people from getting out. The Israelis are building a wall to keep from having enemies get in.

Now that distinction may or may not be relevant to the legality of building the wall. But, it is a distinction of some significance in evaluating motivations.
[/QUOTE]
MV, there are many similarities between the barrier and the Berlin Wall. The barrier is an artificial divide between the two communities based on on ideological lines. The Israelis reasons for having the wall i.e. to keep Palestinian bombers out, is in fact a fallacy. It is an Apartheid Wall to keep Arabs isolated in dozens of remote towns and villages which effectively prevents a functionable Palestinian State from being created.

Btw, this wall has some of the hallmarks of the Berlin Wall i.e electrified fences, Watch Towers, Armed Guards to shoot anyone approaching the wall.
[thumb=E]GreatWallbyJohnReese7230_8211112.JPG[/thumb]