^ good stuff maddie.
The problem is, these Ulema only show up when the Taleban are taking a beating and are on the run. I would appreciate a more active role by them when the Taleban are trying to expand control over greater parts of Pakistani territory, occupying government buildings, killing government personnel, etc.
that is quite an unfair statement. in lal masjid scenarios they tried to talk two brother out of the route of action they had taken. perhaps its the psychology that only registers them when a catastrophe is in action. vast majorities of these ulemas are not takin this militant rule. the point of bringing them in a negotitation is to try and save the situation , that by no mean should imply they are personally responsible for it. quite biased view i think.
Good point, they are interested in saving "Swat deal", they didn't seem interested in saving Buner.
huh and u know that because? i mean u personally asked the rulers or taliban or ulemas whether the made an offers to negotiate? even this article was missing from regular ranting posts on gupshup. we are very intent on hearing one view on gupshup.
that is quite an unfair statement. in lal masjid scenarios they tried to talk two brother out of the route of action they had taken. perhaps its the psychology that only registers them when a catastrophe is in action. vast majorities of these ulemas are not takin this militant rule. the point of bringing them in a negotitation is to try and save the situation , that by no mean should imply they are personally responsible for it. quite biased view i think.
I did not say that they are personally responsible for it, nor even that a vast majority are taking the militant rule. I only said what you yourself acknowledge, they only act when a supposed 'catastrophe' is in action. My question is, why is it only a 'catastrophe' when the militants are confronted by the state? These same individuals have been blowing up civilian and government installations for years now. They have claimed (not blamed for, claimed) *hundreds *of deaths, including random civilians, including hospitals, including school buses, including NGOs, including school teachers and government officials. Why is it a catastrophe only now? Why were the Ulema talking the two brothers out of the route they had taken months after they started abducting policemen, only when the two brothers were surrounded like the rats they were?
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
it did not acknowledge they only'act' when a catastrophe is in order. i said we only 'register' them when it is. implied meaning was they are willing to be active or active long before that. lets just the respresentation of the religious class in our coutnry's parliament? ejaz ul haq? what did the guy ever do to deserve the post of minister of religious affairs? i find the voices of ulemas are rarely heard, not because they donot have a voice but because they are not given any proper platform not attention.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
I am sorry to say this, but the attention is theirs for the taking. If their voices were contingent on the government giving it to them, there would be no reason for them to be on the scene even now. They do not have to be ministers to be actively involved. They choose to be visible now, they chose NOT to be visible before.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
^mate they are actively involved on public level. do you have any idea how many madrassas educate students, in a coutnry where literacy rate is shotting up to 50%? even the lal masjid was providing medical assistance, taking care of orphans and providing education along with accomodation to cchildren from areas where govt has done two bits on that front. they are not funded through govt, privately, run i know of ulemas like the jame ashrafia complex in lahore where they have spend their own money, property to utilize it for the good of community.their voice are subdued in parliament and govt because we got a specific class running the coutnry. ur current president' inherited' a democratic party , how much fresh blood is taken?point less.
^mate they are actively involved on public level. do you have any idea how many madrassas educate students, in a coutnry where literacy rate is shotting up to 50%? even the lal masjid was providing medical assistance, taking care of orphans and providing education along with accomodation to cchildren from areas where govt has done two bits on that front. they are not funded through govt, privately, run i know of ulemas like the jame ashrafia complex in lahore where they have spend their own money, property to utilize it for the good of community.their voice are subdued in parliament and govt because we got a specific class running the coutnry. ur current president' inherited' a democratic party , how much fresh blood is taken?point less.
that they play a social and educational role is laudable. my criticism is restricted to their diplomacy and the timing of it. Your social work argument doesnt apply there, if they were too busy before they should be too busy now. If their voices were suppressed before, they ought to be suppressed now. The same specific class ruling the country before, is ruling the country now.
The only difference is, before the Taliban were sending around suicide bombers, and taking over parts of the country. Now the military is fighting them and trying to end them.
that they play a social and educational role is laudable. my criticism is restricted to their diplomacy and the timing of it. Your social work argument doesnt apply there, if they were too busy before they should be too busy now. If their voices were suppressed before, they ought to be suppressed now. The same specific class ruling the country before, is ruling the country now.
The only difference is, before the Taliban were sending around suicide bombers, and taking over parts of the country. Now the military is fighting them and trying to end them.
it basically comes down to what we want as pakistanis, doesnt it? to get out of the current situation with least amount of casualties or with bashing ulemas for not running the country when we havent ever supported them on that front. cheers.
it basically comes down to what we want as pakistanis, doesnt it? to get out of the current situation with least amount of casualties or with bashing ulemas for not running the country when we havent ever supported them on that front. cheers.
Lets be clear about one thing. I do not expect them to run the country nor should you expect me to support that. I do expect their diplomacy to be a little more visible when the terrorist rats are bombing various components of the Pakistani state instead of vice-versa.
I share your desire for there to be as little casualty as possible, and pray that Pakistani security forces get rid of the terrorist leaders surgically and while protecting the innocent civilians held hostage.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
^ chalo thats enough of an agreement, little difference always provide grounds for debate.
huh and u know that because? i mean u personally asked the rulers or taliban or ulemas whether the made an offers to negotiate? even this article was missing from regular ranting posts on gupshup. we are very intent on hearing one view on gupshup.
May be you can tell us how active they were during all that saga when Taliban "invaded" Buner and how "ulema" urged them not to do it etc, thanks.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
^i'll have to look for it. though i hope you understand ehtasab that i am not claiming they were sitting their twiddling their thumbs so i hope you can do the same.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
here is what was said about suicide attack in pakistan
Suicide attacks in Pakistan are haram and najaaiz. According to sources, a meeting of the Muttehadda Ulema Council was held in Lahore which was attended by the ulema from Jamaat Ahl-e-Sunnat, Ahl-e-Tashee, Ahl-e-Hadees, and the Devbandi and Barelvi schools of thought. An unanimous decree was announced in the meeting that suicide attacks in Pakistan are haram and najaaiz.
Suicide attacks are haram and najaaiz in Pakistan: Ulema’s decree | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online
And here is their take on the nizam e adl deal
Cross-Platform Ulama endorse SWAT Shariah developments - sunniforum.com
as for why they didnt rush off to do the job in swat or Buner, students follow them and they have to watch out and know all the information before they pass the ruling on the matter. Now i will wait for you to give me your special resources.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
This is what i predict,
Army will launch an offense against swaties and tribals compelled by american pressure would make some gains ....and then swaties and tribals will launch Guerilla warfare , take army jawaans as captives and ultimately govt troops will make truce and leave as usual.
This has been repeated over n over again .. but lets see what happens!
Things are not adding up. On one hand they say suicide attacks are haram and on other hand they endorsed Swat sharia accord with the very same people who committ those sins? :konfused:
^ hmm may be because the desire is islamic but the route taken to achieve it isnt? easy maths.
^ hmm may be because the desire is islamic but the route taken to achieve it isnt? easy maths.
Are you even reading what you write? Unislamic actions are being done by taliban so that they can bring "true" islam?
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
^ yes like we take undemocratic measures to establish democracy. human fallacy.
^ hmm may be because the desire is islamic but the route taken to achieve it isnt? easy maths.
Exactly my point, the Ulema think that these guys really want a sharia, they have been fooled.
Re: Ulema Diplomacy to Save Swat Deal
^ i donot think ulema are giving an opinion on their intentions. i think they are giving an opinion about whether or not their demand is islamic. the easiest way is to form an islamic system with the help of these very ulemas to root out the trouble makers.