ShopBrat, No that is not the case. If you have concerns about your post, please send a PM to the relevant Moderator.
Why is it so hard for the US admin. to refuse to address this issue? Is it really that difficult to address an open letter to Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of HRW, regarding these extremely serious allegations?
>>Some of the so-called "evidence" extracted through torture, outright lies told about the Anthrax and Al Qaida links, and top it all off based on a UK govt gathered by stealing from internet ans student articles. Its all coming apart fast...<<
Appears to be unravelling quite fast.
Why is it so hard for the US admin. to refuse to address this issue? Is it really that difficult to address an open letter to Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of HRW, regarding these extremely serious allegations?
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Well the fact that country after country is now lining up to unequivocally say that there is no proof against Iraq, and there is no case for war it seems Powell's report has been a TOTAL failure. If these people cannot address genuine concerns of torture by the Americans forces, nobody will take what they seriously.
6 days and counting since this thread was first posted and STILL we have not heard anyone identify a single piece of evidence offered by Powell that was even arguably derived from torture.
Come on guys and gals, we're still waiting for you to put up.
Come on guys and gals, we're still waiting for you to put up.
Why is Powell taking so long in refuting these allegations? We're still waiting for a senior-level official from the US administration to come out and address the validity of HRW's allegations.
Those who refuse to co-operate are sometimes kept standing or kneeling for long periods, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles, according to experts quoted in the report.
" We don’t kick the [expletive] out of them - we send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them "
US official
US officials who defend the practice say the prisoners are sent to other countries not because of their tougher interrogation methods, but because of their cultural affinity with the captives.
Besides being illegal, they say, torture produces dubious information from suspects who are desperate to stop the pain.
Since Powell’s speech has now been widely discredited across the world, and no country has really been convinced by its lies, I don’t we will see any word from the Americans on the torture they have employed. But we will wait patiently to see if they come up with any rebuttal to the allegations made.
Former terror suspects who have been freed from the Guantanamo Bay facility have described harsh conditions inside the camp - but said they were not beaten
All HRW is asking is for the goverment to clarify the use of torture is not US policyAll of a sudden because you,Malik,DHP decide they are torturing inmates,you think the US goverment should drop everything just to answer your allegations.
What about the claims of the prisoners who have been released,which everyone can read for themselves? The conditions are harsh but you call that torture.
Braveheart, if the conditions are only "harsh", and not indicative of the use of torture, then why not just address these allegations ? Surely an effective response to these allegations will not consume that much time if the allegations are baseless, (as claimed in this thread)?
...you think the US goverment should drop everything just to answer your allegations.
Not 'our' allegations, but HRW's - an excellent source that seems to be on everyone's lips when it comes to the issue of Kurds and gas. i am not asking them to 'drop everything'. In realistic terms, how long does it take to write up an open letter to Kenneth Roth of HRW and address the allegations? If Bush et al have nothing to hide, then that's excellent - therefore, they should perhaps display more eagerness to set the record straight immediately instead of letting this issue drag on.
Nadia, DHP and Malik: You made the charge that Powell was to incorporate evidence gathered by way of torture in his presentation to the UN. It has now been pointed out to you that the initial allegations that Powell's evidence came from torture was published BEFORE his speech. Then, it was pointed out to you that the prisoners who you believe might have been tortured COULDN'T EVEN provide the type of evidence that Powell was expected to produce to the UN. Finally, Powell has made his presentation and produced his evidence and there has not been one single source or story that has pinpointed ANY evidence at all that was produced or likely was produced by torture.
Your initial charges and complaints have now been thoroughly discredited. So now your bogus argument comes down to shouts that the US should renounce torture. And then you go further and ridiculously suggest that the satellite photos, intercepted telephone conversations of Iraq soldiers, testimony of defectors, and the like which were most assuredly NOT the product of any torture ought to just be dismissed because you think Powell owes you a duty to denounce torture.
Wat about the claims of the prisoners who have been released,which everyone can read for themselves?
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Read the articles posted in this thread, it includes testimony by people who have been released who claim they were tortured. Then read again the items from the HRW report and the Washington Post (hardly ani-American sources), and they have talked to people who have been released who also claim they have been tortured.
Did you know that not one detainee in Guantanamo Bay has yet been tried or put on trial to date? Can you explain that?
The Powell report has ben thoroughly discredited by Powell failing to answer charges of torture, by outright lies over Anthrax and Al Qaida links, and best of all the blatant stolen plaigirised UK report. In fact Powell's speech rebounded on the Americans spectactularly, with oppostion even more stronger to the US. What an own goal.
myvoice its not us that are pointing fingers, its many international media organisations and Human Rights Groups that are exposing evidence of torture utilized by the US authorities on detainees.
"US officials have admitted that suspects captured in the region are ‘softened up’ on their way to detention by brutal beatings from US military police and special forces soldiers. They are confined to tiny rooms, blindfolded and thrown into walls. They are tied up in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep by having lights shone on them all day and night. Sometimes they are forced to stand for long periods in black hoods or wearing goggles which have been spray-painted so as to render them blind.
The aim is to disorientate and confuse the suspects, as they face a barrage of questions about their activities in Afghanistan and elsewhere. It is believed that some, who had battle wounds when captured, are denied painkillers as a further way of coaxing information from them. ‘Pain control is a very subjective thing,’ one US official said, deadpan, to the Washington Post last week." Source The Observer, UK. 29 Dec 02
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*Originally posted by Malik73: *The Powell report has ben thoroughly discredited by Powell failing to answer charges of torture, by outright lies over Anthrax and Al Qaida links, and best of all the blatant stolen plaigirised UK report. In fact Powell's speech rebounded on the Americans spectactularly, with oppostion even more stronger to the US. What an own goal.
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As a popular expression in Texas goes: "That dog just won't hunt."
DHP: Answer the question and support the argument that started the thread. *What evidence used in Powell's Address was the product of torture? * If the answer is "NONE" (which it most assuredly is) just admit it. If you then want to talk about torture in general, we can do that.
myvoice, according to the report by HRW at least some of the evidence was derived from interrogations of detainees. Now its no secret that the US utilizes torture techniques on POW's or enemy combatants as they call them these days. There are many statements made by officials admitting that they use torture to extract information from suspects. What HRW and others are saying is that the Bush Administration should renounce torture and strictly implement the Geneva Conventions when dealing with prisoners.
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*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
myvoice, according to the report by HRW at least some of the evidence was derived from interrogations of detainees.
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What evidence is it?????? Do you Know??? Does HRW even know???HRW made their statement BEFORE Powell made his presentation. Isn't the timing a little suspicious???
Further, perhaps you can explain how you, Nadia and/or Malik extrapolate that evidence "derived from interrogations of detainees" must be the product of torture. HRW does NOT even make that claim.
Just tell me which evidence, if any, was "derived from interrogations of detainees."
Then tell me which of that evidence, if any, was the product of torture.
Simple requests aren't they? If you can't do that, then you should just stop with all the BS accusations and move on to something else.
A DOUBLE STANDARD ON TORTURE: THE U.S. SHOULD PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH
The Bush administration has a double standard on torture and human rights violations as it prosecutes the “war on terror.” While trying to convince the American people in his State of the Union address that war with Iraq is necessary, President George W. Bush marshaled accusations that Saddam Hussein has tortured his people to coerce confessions. Yet in the same speech, Bush sanctioned extrajudicial killings by the United States. He said that more than 3,000 suspected terrorists had been arrested but many others had met a “different fate,” so they would no longer cause us problems. Even more recently, Human Rights Watch and other human rights monitoring groups have expressed concern that the United States has actually been using torture to extract information from prisoners. The evidence of American torture and associated inhumane conduct is especially disturbing. In December of last year, the documentary “Massacre in Afghanistan” was aired on German television, to the consternation of the U.S. State Department. It shows interviews with eyewitnesses to the torture and slaughter of 3,000 Taliban POWs, who surrendered to U.S. and allied Afghan forces. The film demonstrates the complicity of the American army command in the killing of these 3,000 men. Some of the prisoners died from suffocation while being transported in closed containers that lacked any ventilation. An Afghan soldier who traveled with the convoy reported he was ordered by an American commander to fire shots into the containers to provide air, knowing he would hit the men inside. One of the drivers recounted the fate of survivors of the transport - dumped in the desert, shot and left to be eaten by dogs, as 30 to 40 American soldiers looked on. These allegations suggest evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity under the statute of the new International Criminal Court. It is precisely liability for actions such as these that Bush sought to escape when he endeavored to remove the United States’ signature on this treaty last year.
A week after the documentary was shown in Germany, the Washington Post reported that “stress and duress” tactics were being used on captured al Qaeda operatives and Taliban commanders who are being interrogated at the CIA’s secret detention center at the U.S.-occupied Bagram air base in Afghanistan. Those who remain uncooperative may be kept standing or kneeling for hours, wearing black hoods and spray-painted goggles. Some are kept in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a bombardment of lights for 24 hours. According to the Post: “While the U.S. government publicly denounces the use of torture, each of the current national security officials interviewed for this article defended the use of violence against captives as just and necessary.” At least two prisoners are known to have died at Bagram base, one of a pulmonary embolism, the other of a heart attack. The article quotes “Americans with direct knowledge and others who have witnessed the treatment,” who reported that MPs and U.S. Army Special Forces troops beat captives and confined them in tiny rooms. Many are blindfolded, thrown into walls, bound in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep. They also report prisoners being bound to stretchers with duct tape for transport. This was the treatment that U.S. citizen John Walker Lindh received, which proved the driving force behind the government’s agreement to a plea bargain. Attorney General John Ashcroft sought to avoid testimony about Lindh’s mistreatment while in captivity. The Post also reported in March that the U.S. government was secretly sending terrorism suspects to countries such as Egypt and Jordan for interrogation, where they would be subjected to torture. This practice is known as “rendition.” One U.S. diplomat is quoted as saying: “These sorts of movements have been occurring all the time. It allows us to get information from terrorists in a way we can’t do on U.S. soil.”
These actions of the U.S. government constitute direct violations of the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, as well as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which also proscribes torture. Both of these treaties, which the U.S. has ratified, forbid torture even in wartime. Alarmed at the Post report about torture undertaken or condoned by the U.S., Human Rights Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth wrote to Bush, saying that immediate steps must be taken “to clarify that the use of torture is not US policy.” Roth reminded Bush that, “U.S. officials who take part in torture, authorize it, or even close their eyes to it, can be prosecuted by courts anywhere in the world.” The prohibition against torture is so basic, it is considered jus cogens, and is thus binding on all countries, even if they haven’t ratified the Torture Convention. The U.S. government’s practice of torture is unjustifiable and a clear violation of international law. The Bush administration has been emboldened to engage in serious human rights violations since the horrific attacks of September 11. Cofer Black, head of the CIA Counterterrorist Center in September, 2002, testified at a joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committee: “This is a very highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: There was a before 9/11, and there was an after 9/11. After 9/11 the gloves came off.” Indeed, in his speech, Bush said: “All told, more than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. Many others have met a different fate. Let’s put it this way - they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies.” Bush was likely referring to the November 2002 assassination of an alleged al Qaeda leader in Yemen by the CIA. Besides violating the Torture Convention and the jus cogens norm prohibiting torture, extrajudical killings, or summary executions, violate the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
Many of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and the U.S. mainland have also been victims of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment by the U.S. government. In Guanatanamo, prisoners have been locked in 8-foot by 8-foot cells 24 hours a day, with one 15-minute exercise break each week. A class action filed by the Center for Constitutional Rights in April 2002, alleged that prisoners in the U.S. were beaten into unconsciousness, bloodied, pushed, kicked in the face, teeth loosened, head slammed against the wall, thumbs bent back and called terrorists. Likewise, many foreign nationals who came forward to register recently with the Immigration and Naturalization Service pursuant to Ashcroft’s order, reported being forced to sleep standing up, or were hosed down before they went to sleep on cold concrete floors in frigid temperatures, according to the Los Angeles Times. These constitute violations of the Torture Convention. Amnesty International has reiterated the U.S. government’s international obligations to refrain from violating the Torture Convention and the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in Afghanistan, in Guantanamo and in the United States. Victims of torture may have a cause of action in U.S. courts under the Alien Tort Claims Act and the Torture Victim Protection Act. There have been 27 cases brought in U.S. federal courts, in five circuits and nine districts, in which the Convention Against Torture was used successfully. Last year, a judge in Georgia awarded compensatory and punitive damages to plaintiffs, based in part on the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, in a lawsuit brought by four Muslim refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina against a former Bosnian Serb police officer under
Quote from Malik's first post:
"Though, it is highly disturbing that some of the "evidence" on Iraq that Powell is due to present to the UN was acquired through torture. "
I ask again:
Just tell me which evidence, if any, was the product of torture.
Don't post a long article that has nothing to do with the issue. You made an allegation. Now either prove/substantiate it or just admit that you were wrong.
Malik, That is an extremely disturbing article - practices that are in alignment with practices in dictatorial countries, not a country such as the US.
It was an informative read. Thanks a million for sharing that.
MyVoice, i am not certain what sort of semantics loophole is being manufactured here - you state Just tell me which evidence, if any, was the product of torture. Obviously, Human Rights Watch possesses this information - if you are so keen on getting your hands on the information, why don't you send them an e-mail requesting more details? Better yet, why don't you write to your Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and ask him to address these allegations? If you can so faithfully accept HRW's allegations of chemical gas against the Kurds, upon what grounds do you dismiss these HRW allegations ?
What is so difficult in what HRW is asking the US admin. to do?
In a letter to Secretary Powell, Human Rights Watch asked him to declare that any U.S. official guilty of such practices will be held accountable, that the United States has no interest in intelligence obtained through torture and other internationally condemned techniques, and that Washington will not turn over detainees to countries where they are likely to receive such treatment.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
**Malik, That is an *extremely disturbing article - practices that are in alignment with practices in dictatorial countries, not a country such as the US.
It was an informative read. Thanks a million for sharing that.**
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Nadia, that article says that this docuentary (Massacre in Afghanistan) alleging American involvement in the masscare of 3000 was shown on German television in December. I wonder if anybody has seen that documentary? But I found quite noticeable in the above article is that it backs up what HRW has stated, namely that:-
Many of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and the U.S. mainland have also been victims of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment by the U.S. government. In Guanatanamo, prisoners have been locked in 8-foot by 8-foot cells 24 hours a day, with one 15-minute exercise break each week. A class action filed by the Center for Constitutional Rights in April 2002, alleged that prisoners in the U.S. were beaten into unconsciousness, bloodied, pushed, kicked in the face, teeth loosened, head slammed against the wall, thumbs bent back and called terrorists
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
**MyVoice, i am not certain what sort of semantics loophole is being manufactured here - you state *Just tell me which evidence, if any, was the product of torture. Obviously, Human Rights Watch possesses this information - if you are so keen on getting your hands on the information, why don't you send them an e-mail requesting more details? Better yet, why don't you write to your Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and ask him to address these allegations? If you can so faithfully accept HRW's allegations of chemical gas against the Kurds, upon what grounds do you dismiss these HRW allegations ?
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Nadia:
While a blind person normally desires nothing more than to see, it disturbs me greatly when sighted people choose deliberate blindness.
First, very simply....tell me how anyone (including HRW) could know with any certainty that evidence in Powell's presentation was the product of torture BEFORE THE PRESENTATION WAS MADE.
Second, you write, "Obviously, Human Rights Watch possesses this information." Where do you get this from, Nadia??? From Malik??? The article only quotes HRW as saying some of the evidence that would be in Powell's presentation was "derived from interrogations of detainees." HRW has never equated evidence "derived from interrogations of detainees" to evidence "derived from torture." It is Malik and You (not HRW) that seems to think that ALL evidence obtained from interrogations is evidence obtained by torture. And, why do you do this Nadia??? You say you are not anti-American. You say you try to be fair and critically examine information and facts before drawing conclusions. Did you in this case??? Or did you simply assume the worst of the US???
And frankly, I don't think I should waste my time asking my Secretary of State to respond to an allegation that you, Malik and DHP have made based upon your biased anti-American interpretation of something HRW wrote.
MyVoice my friend,
Please avoid using so many question marks in your replies to myself, because it gives the impression that you are screaming or yelling. Thank you in advance, would much appreciate it.
Malik,
Exactly. i wondered about this documentary that was broadcast in Germany; i have never heard a word about it from the mainstream media here.
Many of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and the U.S. mainland have also been victims of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment by the U.S. government. In Guanatanamo, prisoners have been locked in 8-foot by 8-foot cells 24 hours a day, with one 15-minute exercise break each week. A class action filed by the Center for Constitutional Rights in April 2002, alleged that prisoners in the U.S. were beaten into unconsciousness, bloodied, pushed, kicked in the face, teeth loosened, head slammed against the wall, thumbs bent back and called terrorists
Again, i simply don't know what to state. It is hard to imagine this is the US we are referring to, not Kuwait or Saudi Arabia. i think it is critical one bears in mind that these are still 'prisoners' or 'detainees', NOT terrorists. They have yet to be charged and convicted in a court of law (not through military tribunals, but the proper judicial channels). An extremely sorry state of affairs - even prisoners of war have unequivocal and inalienable rights under the Geneva Convention. When will someone from the US government address these deeply disturbing reports?