[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Malik,
Where is the proof? All supposition and speculation.
[/QUOTE]
Is that what you ask yourself when you quote HRW reports, as well? :)
I suggest you ask that most anti-American source the Washington Post for the proof...and then ask Powell why he failed to address this issue in his speech? Did he not produce this "evidence" that was taken from the very people they have in captivity?
A number of detainees have been returned to Pakistan. Have any of them claimed to be tortured?
Why do you make it so easy for me?
Briton tells of ordeal in Bush’s torture jail
The letter contained only hints of what Moazzam Begg’s interrogators may have done to him. He wrote of hunger and being kept awake by bright lights. ‘I still don’t know what will happen with me,’ he lamented to his wife back home in Birmingham. Begg, 35, was writing from Bagram military base just outside Kabul. He is the only British prisoner inside a cluster of metal shipping containers at the heart of the United States army part of the base, which serves as a ‘jail’ for al-Qaeda suspects. Now the camp is at the centre of a furious row over US behaviour in the war on terror. Evidence is growing that prisoners inside the containers are being tortured by American soldiers and CIA agents.
Begg may have written of more damaging details of his own treatment, but many of his previous letters were never delivered. It appears the US soldiers at Bagram have much to hide. Human rights groups are calling for an inquiry into the methods used by American interrogators at Bagram and other bases in Afghanistan. US officials have admitted that suspects captured in the region are ‘softened up’ on their way to detention by brutal beatings from US military police and special forces soldiers. They are confined to tiny rooms, blindfolded and thrown into walls. They are tied up in painful positions, subjected to loud noises and deprived of sleep by having lights shone on them all day and night. Sometimes they are forced to stand for long periods in black hoods or wearing goggles which have been spray-painted so as to render them blind. The aim is to disorientate and confuse the suspects, as they face a barrage of questions about their activities in Afghanistan and elsewhere. It is believed that some, who had battle wounds when captured, are denied painkillers as a further way of coaxing information from them. ‘Pain control is a very subjective thing,’ one US official said, deadpan, to the Washington Post last week. Those who do not crack, or perhaps have nothing to tell, are often handed over to foreign intelligence services such as those of Morocco or Saudi Arabia, where less sophisticated and bloodier torture techniques are regularly employed.
Critics point out that the US forces have picked up innocent men before. In October three Afghan men were released without charge after they had been held for a year at the American base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. They were given $500 compensation between them. So far the US has admitted that two men held at Bagram have died in custody -one from a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism, or blood clot on the lung. A criminal investigation is now under way, but no reason has been given of what caused the men’s injuries. In the case of Begg, who grew up in the Moseley area of Birmingham, the Americans have been equally silent. Foreign Office officials admit that after 11 months of asking they have still not been able to see him to check on his health. ‘We are still pressing the Americans, but as yet we have not been allowed access,’ said a spokesman. Begg has not seen a lawyer, a Red Cross official or any member of his family either since he was arrested in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad last February.
Just why the Briton was sought by the Americans is also a mystery. But they wanted him badly. When the US bombing began in November 2001, Begg closed down the school he had opened in Kabul and moved to Pakistan. It was there that he was arrested, bundled into a car and smuggled back over the border into Afghanistan, first to Kandahar and then to Bagram. The last time his father, Azmat Begg, heard Moazzam’s voice was in a call from a mobile phone as his son lay in the boot of his captors’ vehicle. After a few panicky moments the call suddenly ended. Despite being a devout Muslim, Moazzam Begg attended a Jewish primary school in the West Midlands. He studied law at a Birmingham college but dropped out in 1994 to join a charity delivering aid to Muslims in Bosnia. His family portray him as a family man who worked as a translator and took his wife and three young children with him to Afghanistan. ‘I am worried like a father who would worry about his son,’ said Azmat Begg, 64. ‘He is a lovely and bright boy and obedient. He never tells lies and always does the right thing. He told me he wanted to start a school in Afghanistan to improve the literacy rates there.’ Certainly his letter to his wife showed a man anguished about his family. ‘The most difficult thing in my life is being away from you and the kids,’ he wrote. However, security sources point to raids on Begg’s British home by anti-terrorist police. The first was several years ago and the second was carried out last summer, when a computer, five floppy disks and two CD-roms were taken. Neither raid resulted in any charges. But human rights activists say suspects at Bagram - whether innocent or guilty - should not be tortured. This, they say, undermines the war on terror. ‘How can the US descend to the level of using terror in the war on terror? What sort of victory is that? This is illegal and it is appalling,’ said Jamie Felner, a US director of Human Rights Watch. Amnesty International has also condemned the treatment of detainees such as Begg. ‘The US must ensure that its actions in relation to those in custody comply with international law and standards,’ said a spokesperson. ‘This is crucial if justice is to be done.’
The only direct proof you have given is that one letter writer was hungry and kept awake by bright lights. The entire rest of the article is speculation. Sort of like the screaming headlines from the newspaper proclaiming torture in Cuba. Yet these people have been seen by their foreign embassies, and the red cross and there have been no allegations in cuba as the headline proclaimed. Try again.
But further, please show me that any information in Powell's speech came from torture victims. That is that nature of your thread. and, I await the proof of torture from the Pakistani's that have been released. Sounds like no problems there HUH?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The entire rest of the article is speculation.
[/QUOTE]
And I ask you again have you not quoted from HRW reports before? Are you now prepared to admit it was all speculation and supposition?
You specifically asked for A number of detainees have been returned to Pakistan. Have any of them claimed to be tortured?. You got that...and more. Here's something you failed to read in that article:-
**US officials* have admitted that suspects captured in the region are 'softened up' on their way to detention by brutal beatings from US military police and special forces soldiers.*
the US has admitted that two men held at Bagram have **died in custody...A **criminal investigation* is now under way, but no reason has been given of what caused the men's injuries.*
Note the word - criminal
Hmmm.
Why would the US let a prisoner held in Afghanistan, picked up in Pakistan write a letter. And do those unnamed officials have names?
Look, I do not endorse torture in any regard. And I do believe that HRW is an excellent organization. But after the word "TORTURE" appeared in huge headlines in the same newspaper you are quoting when the US was transporting prisoners, the word lost some meaning and the source was suspect.
When I hear you speaking out as loudly about Saddams torture you will have some credibility. Until then it is more Anti-US sniping from you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Until then it is more Anti-US sniping from you.
[/QUOTE]
Not only that OG, despite the request from both you and I, no one seems able to identify any information in Powell's speech came from torture victims as was claimed at the top of this thread.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
...I do believe that HRW is an excellent organization.
[/QUOTE]
Which would not make unsubstantiated allegations against the USA as well, nor lie about its claims. After all you have used them widely to support your claims. Now do you believe that the Washington Post is a suspect source as well? For it is they that first made the most fuss about these allegations...something which Powell has not addressed, hence tainting his so-called "evidence".
Now why do you think the US military forces would not allow Mr Begg tp see his lawyer, any Red Cross official or any member of his family since he was arrested?
Why is their a criminal investigation being carried out by your very own US military in the deaths of two detainees?
Lets not leap to conclusions Malik. The only proof put forward by HRW was an article in the WP with unnamed sources. I do not doubt the Post article, nor do I doubt HRW. But precious little evidence has come forward. And certain parties do leap out of the closet in the name of politics from time to time. Thus I am taking the information, particularly given it's timing with a grain of salt.
Now to the point of your thread, Powell renouncing torture. Please let me know where you think torture took place in Mr Powells presentation. Otherwise it is simply jockeying for postion, and trying to derail the issue at hand. Those against a conflict have been known to throw out red herrings to derail events.
And just so you know, Criminal Investigations do not in any way imply guilt. But you know this.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *Please let me know where you think torture took place in Mr Powells presentation. Otherwise it is simply jockeying for postion, and trying to derail the issue at hand. Those against a conflict have been known to throw out red herrings to derail events.
[/QUOTE]
OG:
Please don't hold your breath waiting for an identification of evidence presented by Powell that was obtained by torture. You'll just turn blue and hurt yourself.
These charges first appeared yesterday before Powell even presented any evidence at all. I've been trying ever since to obtain an explanation and identification of what this evidence supposedly is. At least then I would know what it is that I have been urged to disregard and forget.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Those against a conflict have been known to throw out red herrings to derail events.
[/QUOTE]
Also there are those who have been known to stage hoaxes and propogate lies to in order to justify war. Im sure everyone here is aware of those incidents.
Dil,
Now let's see.
Credibility.
Saddam. 12 years of complete lies and deception before UN inspectors. A genocidal tyrant who rules by murder, disapperance, attacking his neighbors and slaughtering his people.
Orrr,
Colin Powell.
I think this is almost too easy....
But then again, a Scud Missle filled with Anthrax could drop out of the sky with Saddam riding it and hit you in the head and you would still utter "show me the evidence" right on cue....
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:
I do not doubt the Post article, nor do I doubt HRW. But precious little evidence has come forward.
[/QUOTE]
First, do you regard HRW and the Washington Post as anti-American sources? Now about unnamed sources? How many so-called sources could Mr Powell manage to name in his presenting his "evidence"? i.e. the scientists, workers and opposition figures where his "evidence" was supposedly gathered from?
Back to this thread. You first asked if any of the detainees had alleged torture at the hands of the Amercicans, and then you got the proof.
Then you claimed that all all the detainees had been seen by the Red Cross, their embassies etc. Then how do you explain the fact that Begg has not seen a lawyer, a Red Cross official or any member of his family either since he was arrested in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad last February?
Now if there are no basis for these allegations, then please explain why there is a criminal investigation going on at present into the deaths of two detainees?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Anthrax...
[/QUOTE]
Please remind us who was behind the Anthrax attacks in America? Thank you.
Malik,
You are boring me.
I asked you if there were any of the RETURNED Pakistani's who complained about mistreatment.
The criminal investigation is a matter of procedure.
You are going to drive this thread into the ground.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**I asked you if there were any of the RETURNED Pakistani's who complained about mistreatment.
The criminal investigation is a matter of procedure.**
[/QUOTE]
Were there only Pakistani's at these camps? There are strong allegations of torture that HRW and the Washington Post have reported, which you cannot deny. You asked for allegations, you got them, and from sources you have quoted yourselves in support of your arguments. Additionally, torturing somebody and then them , as was the case with these two detainees is not a matter of procedure, but a criminal act.
You have failed to address a key question I put to you. Earlier you quite falsely claimed that these people have been seen by their foreign embassies, and the red cross. Then please explain why Begg has not seen a lawyer, a Red Cross official or any member of his family either since he was arrested in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad last February?
Btw, another one you failed to address - who was behind those anthrax attacks in America?
It's really quite simple.
Why don't Bush and Powell arrange a press conference tomorrow, in which they will renounce the use of torture irrespective of whatever perceived political justifications, and Powell issues an open reply to HRW stating that HRW is invited to investigate whether any of the "evidence" presented today to the Security Council, was obtained through torture. That is what HRW is asking for. Surely, if all the legally admissible interrogation techniques were always utilized, then the US should be welcome to this measure (that is assuming if they have nothing to hide).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
It's really quite simple.
Why don't Bush and Powell arrange a press conference tomorrow, in which they will renounce the use of torture irrespective of whatever perceived political justifications, and Powell issues an open reply to HRW stating that HRW is invited to investigate whether any of the "evidence" presented today to the Security Council, was obtained through torture. That is what HRW is asking for. Surely, if all the legally admissible interrogation techniques were always utilized, then the US should be welcome to this measure (that is assuming if they have nothing to hide).
[/QUOTE]
Exactly, and Powell very clearly failed to that. They are asking Iraq to prove them wrong over serious allegations they are making, so surely they can do the same? Where is the moral high ground that the US always feels it has, when it is making torture a legitimate means to extract "evidence" from detainees?
Malik why dont you just drop them a line,Bush and Blair i mean,im sure they would be happy to oblidge you,or maybe the only reason they havnt is because they fear you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Braveheart: *
Malik why dont you just drop them a line,Bush and Blair i mean,im sure they would be happy to oblidge you,or maybe the only reason they havnt is because they fear you.
[/QUOTE]
No they fear the reaction of the people, and their elected representatives if they were to address the allegations (of torture) levelled against them. But on a related point, I am still waiting for you to tell me why Blair has not had the courage in the last five months to call a debate on Iraq in the House of Commons, and ask for a confidence vote over the issue? He is obvioulsy fearful he might get the same outcome as Howard did in the Australian Senate?