Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^ How did government figure out who is terrorist and who is not? Just by the age and sex of the deceased? Just because the person died was above certain age (lets say 13 years) and was male, we can call him terrorist? Did "terrorist" have an ID on his body saying which terrorist organization he belonged to?
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^ How did government figure out who is terrorist and who is not? Just by the age and sex of the deceased? Just because the person died was above certain age (lets say 13 years) and was male, we can call him terrorist? Did "terrorist" have an ID on his body saying which terrorist organization he belonged to?
Brother, funny but interesting question … I think you should write to Pakistan defence ministry to get your answer … and by the way, at present Nawaz Shareef is not only Prime Minister of Pakistan but he is also defence minister of Pakistan … so regarding question you have in your mind, Nawaz Shareef (Prime Minister as well as Defence Minister) is most likely person to know and answer.:).
Anyhow, even though I would not know as I am not ‘defence minister of Pakistan’, I can make a reasonable calculated guess :)
Pakistan has one of the biggest and considered to be amongst the best intelligence network in the world (ISI is considered as world number one intelligence agency), with lots of people working at ground level. ISI, Local administration and other relevant government organisations know most of terrorists just like police know criminals in their area. All terrorist organisations in Pakistan have intelligence agency’s planted men within them. Pakistan intelligence agencies also have means to tap into conversation terrorists do with each other using any sort of media tools. That is the reason, most of time, Pakistan intelligence agencies gives accurate warning to government about Taliban and other terrorists planned attacks … and at times can even tell movement of suicide bombers.
What I believe, it is Pakistan intelligence that sends information along with co-ordinates to USA about terrorists’ whereabouts, giving direction regarding ‘time and place’ to hit them terrorists with drones. Once target is hit, intelligence agencies start collecting information about casualties … who died and what was their role in terrorist organisation. Even though most of the time intelligence agencies keep quiet, but sometime they do leak the information and that is the reason when Hakeemullah was killed, Pakistan media was first to declare that he got killed (at that time, neither Americans nor Taliban were admitting that Hakeemullah got killed).
Actually, it is no big deal for Pakistan intelligence agencies to know the casualties after each drone attacks and involvements of the person killed/wounded in terrorism. Pakistan intelligence agencies report to chief of Pakistan armed forces, as well as defence ministry, so for defence ministry to know who got killed or wounded, and what was their role in terrorism, is obvious. Leave Pakistan, intelligence agencies of most countries would know such information if any killing is happening in their country.
Thus, one can safely say that no one in the world could accurately know as much about the people killed in drone strikes then Pakistan intelligence agencies, Pakistan armed forces, and Pakistan defence ministry. Since Senate asked, they came with the figures.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^ How did government figure out who is terrorist and who is not? Just by the age and sex of the deceased? Just because the person died was above certain age (lets say 13 years) and was male, we can call him terrorist? Did "terrorist" have an ID on his body saying which terrorist organization he belonged to?
Well, if you're challenging the accuracy of these numbers perhaps you can provide a better source? These numbers are coming from MOD & are based on compensation paid to the victims. To be fair, AI says that number of dead are around 300+ and not 67, but that is still relatively low number compare to number of civilians killed by TTP and their affiliated groups 40k+ according to the govt figures. Again, every innocent life lost is bad, but this is a war imposed by these killers. Do you have a better proposal on how to fight these terrorists where there are no innocent causalities?
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Good to know we are now comparing a military governed by rules of war and international law and terrorists when it comes to the number of civilian causalities.
A US solider is the comparable as a suicide bomber it seems.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
A tale of two narratives - DAWN.COM
**MALALA and Nabila. Two girls, both of whom have suffered more pain and trauma than any child should have to endure. One is widely berated as a ‘drama’ and an ‘agent’ and abused in the foulest language possible.
**
The other, though it’s early days yet, has thus far avoided that fate. Oh yes, there have been some insinuations. It is said that she’s being used as a propaganda tool, that her child’s drawing shows two drones, while drones don’t fly in pairs (this last part is true, to my knowledge).
But when I was her age, I drew a picnic scene with my father as a giant, the sky as red and the grass as purple. Pointing out that my father is actually of average height and the technicalities of chlorophyll coloration would not have changed the fact that I did go on that picnic. It does not make me a liar, and the implication that Nabila is lying is as repulsive as implying that Malala is somehow an American agent.
The other day someone on social media commented that Malala was targeted for the ‘hype’ that had been built around her. For “cuddling to the Americans”. It’s interesting how that could be reversed. Would a congressional hearing be considered cuddling? Would flying Nabila 7,000 miles to the US be considered part of some nefarious agenda? Would the translator’s tears be deemed a drama?
**The answer depends on which side of the deep ideological divide you stand on. Each has its sets of tenets and beliefs, and deviation from these is punished.
**
If you sympathise with Malala you’re a ‘fake liberal’, if you question the PR machine that has been built up around her you’re an extremist. If you oppose drones because of civilian casualties you’re a Taliban sympathiser. If you claim drones may have some utility against terrorists you’re a warmonger.
That these binaries are false doesn’t mean they’re not popular, and it’s not just the ignorant and easily misled who are guilty of these rank distortions, but also the well-read, the professionals, the journalists and intellectuals. People you had hoped and prayed knew better.
Here’s the thing: we believe only what we want to believe. We arrive at our conclusions and then choose those facts that neatly support those conclusions. We reverse-engineer reason. It’s not a phenomenon limited to Pakistanis.
A fairly prominent Western academic recently cited the government’s claims of 67 civilian casualties in drone attacks, taking them as gospel truth. Ironically, the same academic refuses to believe anything else that comes out of Pakistan in an official context.
Joining her are many prominent Pakistani thinkers desperate to, just this once, believe the government’s line because this time it jibes with their own thoughts. Cherry-picking is the order of the day. Whether it’s the ‘Tunisian sex jihad’ or the cinema that was struck by lightning for showing a blasphemous film, we hear only what we want to, and shout down anyone who dares differ. It’s much like a child who plugs up his ears and shouts ‘I can’t hear you’. Only far less endearing, and far more dangerous.
It is also deeply hypocritical. Consider this: a newspaper widely attacked by the right-wing for being ‘liberal’, ‘secular’ and working on a ‘foreign agenda’ publishes a scurrilous story implying that a news channel is being funded by forces hostile to Pakistan.
All of a sudden, the same people relentlessly attacking that paper swallow the story verbatim, never even seeing the hook in the tempting piece of bait, and certainly never considering who’d be holding the fishing pole.
Another example is of the Nadeem Farooq Paracha satire piece on Malala last month, which was taken as ‘evidence’ by those who would otherwise condemn him as a traitor.
The internet feeds this phenomenon. This is after all the era of the ‘daily me’. Now we can cater all our news and information to fit and reinforce our existing beliefs and biases. We can virtually surround ourselves with the like-minded, blocking out those annoying dissenting opinions.
**In Pakistani discourse, just as in the Game of Thrones, there is no middle ground. But the fact remains that, just because a colour isn’t black that does not mean that it’s white by default. There is a whole spectrum of light out there that can be seen once you take your blinkers off.
**
Most of us don’t. Most of us don’t even know we’re wearing them, and take the resulting tunnel vision as the way nature intended it. Some others revel in their own myopia, wearing it like a badge of pride. It is anything but.
Yet many of us simply refuse to open our minds, and who can blame them? After all, who knows what dangerous thoughts could enter an open mind? Far safer to bar the gates and raise the drawbridge, and simply hear the echoes of our own voices, bouncing of the barren walls of our mental prisons.
The writer is a member of staff.
[EMAIL=“[email protected]”][email protected]
Twitter: @ZarrarKhuhro
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Now media is trying to make us realize difference of two stories. Whereas malala was given every single benefit of doubt and complete coverage of her viewpoint. No 'hype' for Nabila's case.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Nabila's picture taken at hearing broke my heart.
I am not a Malala hater. She is a brave girl but this has exposed double standards of our media and international policy makers.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Brother, funny but interesting question … I think you should write to Pakistan defence ministry to get your answer … and by the way, at present Nawaz Shareef is not only Prime Minister of Pakistan but he is also defence minister of Pakistan … so regarding question you have in your mind, Nawaz Shareef (Prime Minister as well as Defence Minister) is most likely person to know and answer.:).
He is one of the most clueless "leaders" I have seen, to most important questions his usual answer is: "mujhe to pata hi nahi thaa....."
Anyhow, even though I would not know as I am not ‘defence minister of Pakistan’, I can make a reasonable calculated guess :)
No, thank you, I am not interested in any guesswork herding people under one umbrella.
Well, if you're challenging the accuracy of these numbers perhaps you can provide a better source? These numbers are coming from MOD & are based on compensation paid to the victims. To be fair, AI says that number of dead are around 300+ and not 67, but that is still relatively low number compare to number of civilians killed by TTP and their affiliated groups 40k+ according to the govt figures. Again, every innocent life lost is bad, but this is a war imposed by these killers. Do you have a better proposal on how to fight these terrorists where there are no innocent causalities?
I am not discussing what TTP is doing, what drones are doing, what government is doing, what AI is saying etc. I am simply asking how did government or for that matter any organization conclude that the number of "terrorists" was 2160? Is there a "registration" database where their names are checked whether the dead was terrorist or not?
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Interesting. At odds with this data:
Out of Sight, Out of Mind: A visualization of drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004
Which claims that only a small percentage are confirmed terrorist. The bone of contention is that the vast majority who are killed are simply men with arms, or who seem to have arms. In this region, it’s lunatic to suggest that all such people are terrorists.
So those nice figures are useless unless we have clear indication as to what criteria is used to determine who is, and is not, a terrorist.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^ Brother, neither you have men on ground to know who got killed from drones, neither Americans, neither Europeans, neither Pakistani media, neither human rights people, neither religious groups, neither those who are anti-Taliban, neither those who are pro-Taliban, nor speculators.
Just think ... according to your definition, since there is no one on whose forehead is written terrorists, even Hakeemullah Mehsud was civilian with arms and thus is innocent civilian victim of drone. :)
Fancy presentation you gave about drone strikes and victims, someone can similarly give much better fancy presentation with figures that drone strikes only killed terrorists or drone strikes killed none. In the end … we have to see that source is reliable and also have resources and reasons to know figures. Actually, all other figures must also be coming from individuals working in ministry of defence, without claiming them to be reliable ...hence unreliable .. as none of the figures circulating are official ministry of defence figures.
Fact is that, only people who can accurately tell who got killed from drones strikes are those who are present in the area, have responsibility of the area (being Pakistani officials), have men on ground doing all sorts of surveillance of terrorists (as area terrorist operating is their responsibility and under their jurisdiction), and engaging terrorists in conflicts … and these people are Pakistani intelligence agencies, Pakistan armed forces and Pakistan ministry of defence. They are the only source that can tell how many terrorists got killed and how many civilians got killed in each drone strikes. All others, whoever they maybe, have to take their figures from Pakistan intelligence agencies, Pakistan ministry of defence, and Pakistan armed forces.
Pakistan Senate asked Pakistan defence ministry for the figures because even senators know that it is only Ministry of defence who can give such figures accurately. In Senate we have members from all parties, some pro-Taliban and some anti-Taliban. Figures mentioned is the figures Pakistan defence ministry gave to Senate, a figure that any senator can challenge (if senator has any reason) and could ask Senate to set-up enquiry against ministry of defence. Anyhow, in the end, words of ministry of defence has to be final as it is only they who could give such figures.
I have no reason to believe that Pakistan defence ministry figures are wrong … and if I do not believe Pakistan defence ministry figures than I could not believe any figures, as source of all figures has to be Pakistan defence ministry because they not only represent Pakistan and area drones are operating, but have all resources to know accurate figures.
Actually, who can be classified terrorist in Pakistan, who can be classified as just criminal, or can be considered as innocent Pakistan, is prerogative of Pakistan defence ministry and Pakistan interior ministry anyhow. They implement and enforce laws in the country. Even if judiciary gives any verdict, judiciary have to go to these ministries for implementation and enforcement.
No doubt, due to some political reasons, some ministries may give wrong answers, but regardless, not accepting their answers and figures (as acceptable figures) is just like living in fool paradise.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Malala and Nabila: worlds apart - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
so you know they could be lying, still you want to accept numbers/information coming out from them as fact/truth.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^ No, I do not know that they could be lying, neither I have any reason to believe they could be lying.
Actually, ground realities is that if ministry of defence wanted to lie regarding drone civilian kill figures then they would have given higher civilian kill figures, because Nawaz government at least claim they want drones strikes to stop, and that means, giving figures to show that drones strikes are killing too many civilians.
One also have to realise that the figures of death given is of 'drone strikes during PPP government', and thus it makes no sence or can give any advantage to PMLN government by showing that drone strikes during PPP government caused minimal civilian casualties, rather, only 9 civilian death in 2009, 2 in 2010, none in 2012 and none in 2013. Such figures could make PPP government drone record quite efficient, especially if more civilian kills due to drone happens during Nawaz government ... hence incentive for present defence ministry is to give higher civilian kill figures than lower.
What is political incentive for ministry of defence to lie to Pakistan senate regarding civilian death due to drone strikes? Can you think of any? I cant.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^ Brother, neither you have men on ground to know who got killed from drones, neither Americans, neither Europeans, neither Pakistani media, neither human rights people, neither religious groups, neither those who are anti-Taliban, neither those who are pro-Taliban, nor speculators.
Yet here we are, meant to assume that everyone who is killed is a terrorist? Try harder. By your logic, we should just carpet bomb the whole territory. Guilty until proven otherwise?
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^ No, I do not know that they could be lying, neither I have any reason to believe they could be lying.
Actually, ground realities is that if ministry of defence wanted to lie regarding drone civilian kill figures then they would have given higher civilian kill figures, because Nawaz government at least claim they want drones strikes to stop, and that means, giving figures to show that drones strikes are killing too many civilians.
One also have to realise that the figures of death given is of 'drone strikes during PPP government', and thus it makes no sence or can give any advantage to PMLN government by showing that drone strikes during PPP government caused minimal civilian casualties, rather, only 9 civilian death in 2009, 2 in 2010, none in 2012 and none in 2013. Such figures could make PPP government drone record quite efficient, especially if more civilian kills due to drone happens during Nawaz government ... hence incentive for present defence ministry is to give higher civilian kill figures than lower.
What is political incentive for ministry of defence to lie to Pakistan senate regarding civilian death due to drone strikes? Can you think of any? I cant.
The numbers were not actually gathered by current administration, but kept "accumulating" gathered by prior administrations. Why the govt would lie to keep number of civilians lower? The answer is that they don't want the black spot to be bigger than they think they can handle. They want to keep it low enough to be "acceptable" levels in international standards as well as well as for local masses. Imagine if govt admitted that the terrorists died = 500 and civilians died = 2500, you think international advocates for human rights will not be making more noises, similarly local population will be even more vocal.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^Brother, I think you are unaware of how countries work. You should know that political governments do not have control over official state figures, they can only have some control on what should come out in public and what should not. If political governments had control over state figures, then they could have fiddled all economic and other data as well as crime data and state records.
Just imagine, if politicians had control over state records then thugs like Nawaz Shareef or Shahbaz Shareef would have changed state records of many government or private buildings in Lahore and would have put their own name as owner. Well, in last 5 years, Zardari could have changed ownership records and would have inserted his name as owner of Nawaz’s Raiwand palace, but they could not.
Defence ministry should have all the records of death due to drones, as state records in state files. Government or Senate can demand any state records to get released to them, if they want to. Thus, Senate asked and figures were submitted to Senate by PMLN defence ministry, not PPP defence ministry. Senate is not a joke but it is the highest body in the country, and it is almost impossible (if not completely impossible) to give them wrong figures, as risk to those giving wrong figures are quite high.
Anyhow, PMLN ministry could have given wrong figures (though there is no reason for that), but if any Senator thinks that figures are lies or concocted, then he can ask for enquiry, and that would bring lot of trouble for ministry personals, as then judicial enquiry could go into state files to check the figures given.
Pakistan Senate has senators from various parties. Many senators belong to parties that are pro-terrorists and anti-drones ... for instance JUI (F), JI, PMLN, FATA senators, etc. So, if figures are concocted then those who are pro-terrorists and anti-drone would not accept the figures and would ask for judicial enquiry (bringing trouble for ministry personals submitting concocted figures to Senate).
So, it is almost impossibility that figures given by PMLN defence ministry is lie or concocted.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Guilty until proven otherwise?
Yes, thats the burden of proof that Taliban use when they're beheading policemen/soldiers or blowing up people in market places or on buses.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
Yes, thats the burden of proof that Taliban use when they're beheading policemen/soldiers or blowing up people in market places or on buses.
That no such caution is exercised by any party is EXACTLY my point, hence my pointing out the similarity in the operational behaviour of the two belligerents.
Re: Two Pakistani girls. Two very different stories
^^^Brother, I think you are unaware of how countries work. You should know that political governments do not have control over official state figures, they can only have some control on what should come out in public and what should not. If political governments had control over state figures, then they could have fiddled all **economic **and other data as well as crime data and state records.
As if the numbers being reported in the world are accurate, I remember reading news article about US govt fudging economic data to increase public confidence. Now you will have 10 paragraphs how it is okay for govts to fudge some data. So you can keep on believing what you do, I am not going to be bothered about that.