Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

I did answer it if you read my comment above the previous one. we see things differently you obviously see it from a totally different perspective one that's very religious, you see it in the confines of islam. see there is no expectation or requirement for me,I really don't see it that way. it's more of wanting to be a part of islamic culture or jewish culture not b/c it is expected of me or required but because it's more on a human-human emotional level not on a strict religious level.

if my religion, whichever religion that is, said that a person(belonging to my religion or not) is evil and slime because he/she is trying to lead me away from my beliefs by tempting me into say...eating candy, i will personally refuse to believe in that part of what my holy book says, it would not only go against logic but is prejudiced and demonizes those that don't belong to my religion because i would see that person on a human level not on a religious level. even if human beings are naturally prejudiced, i wouldn't feel compelled to believe in that and I choose to never believe in it.

if a nonmuslim jain person was in looooove with a muslim man, for him, the jain girl is beneath a muslim slave right?

it sucks that it isn't seen as being hurtful but i have a feeling that it will be something that will be somehow rationalized and explained how the girl is beneath the muslim boy in terms of marriage or love. there is a sense of arrogance or superiority.

it's not that i'm giving up trying to discuss this issue further, I just see that you have your views and you wont ever see my views on this, so there's no point in discussing this further b/c i don't want to offend anybody so plz let's drop the issue.

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Re: Tony Blair’s SIL Converts to Islam!

You have many many misconceptions about Islam and muslims:

1- Muslims are arrogant. Not. They do not want someone to be pressured to be saying Eid or Ramadan Mubarak. A good thing.

2- They would not push anyone back if someone does that. But you think I said that.

3- They encourage people to learn about other relgions too. A large number of people do.

4- I see everything from common sense view. Personal freedom of greeting or not greeting is what I said. No expectations should be there to begin with. Nothing religious.

5- About the Jain girl, where did you learn about being beneath slave? :smack:

6- Marriage and love are two different social interactions. People in love who have same religion face difficulties based on so many other differences, with religious differences, things get even more complicated.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

i don't know why you interpreted my comment as offensive towards muslims. i had muslim friends in college and i've only been going by what i've learned from learned Muslims that i've been around and the quranic verses which i have read. loads of beautiful quranic verses, like in other holy books. in terms of number 5, tell me the correct interpretation of this verse, i know it well:

And do not marry Al-Mushrikât (nonmuslim, etc.) till they believe (worship Allâh Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (nonmuslim, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikûn till they believe (in Allâh Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikûn) invite you to the Fire, but Allâh invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember..
(Quran, 2:221)

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

(I did not take anything of yours as offensive, I would have told you so if I did, in clear words.)

I knew that was coming. :)

There are few points here for you to understand. Hope this helps.

1-For Allah, the person who believes is better than non-believer. Here the emphasis is for Allah. Not to human being.

2- This is mainly an advice from Allah to accept a slave girl who is believer to marry rather than a non-muslm.

The Iyet is simply encouraging muslim men to marry slave girls who are believers.

There is no way hatred or arrogance is promoted here.

3- This is also the beginnng of Islam when Iyet was revealed. Marrying and having offspring of same religion is a way to promote religion.

4- Women from idol worshipping religions are the one who are not to be married. Christianity and Judaism women were considered permissible. (People of scripture). I think you may not like it. Sorry.

Many of Quranic Iyah need to be looked at the context of which they were revealed.

Not your fault, even so many muslims do that mistake.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

^right but in context that verse for me as a nonmuslim is offensive, it might not seem like that to you as a muslim but it is to me

anyways, there are so many other verses that i have a hard time with. disbelievers are who? God believers are excluded or are disbelievers supposed to be nonmuslims that have not submitted themselves to Allah. it isn't clear sometimes and depends on the person interpreting the lines, why such negativity against those that have not submitted themselves to Allah.

**Sûrat As-Saff (The Row or the Rank) 61: Verses 8-9… * *

They intend to put out the Light of Allâh (i.e. the Religion of Islâm, this Qur’ân, and the Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it).

He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger Muhammad) hate (it).

tell me if these are out of context. it will take me a while to find them myself so i searched online for them if that's ok. I believe allah is one of the names of God, i just can't get myself to be a muslim b/c of lines like these. I don't hate islam and yet i'm made out to be a hater because i have not submitted myself to Allah.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

This is as clear as it can be.

Here the verse is written not as a factual term but word 'even though' is a kicker here. It is not saying ALL non muslims hate islam. There were non-muslims who had great sympathy with and even fought wars together with muslims all throughout the history. Read the Medina time spent by muslims and co-existence with those who were not muslims.

So here it says: Even though mushrikeen may not like it, detest it or may be averse to it, Quran is saying Islam is chosen to prevail over other religions.

You just chose the word hate here. Not the only translation.

Pickthall :He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who hath sent His Apostle with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Hilali-Khan: It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

Shakir: He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Sher Ali : HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters may resent it.

Khalifa: He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

Arberry: It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion, though the unbelievers be averse.

Palmer: He it is who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over every other religion, averse although idolaters may be!

Rodwell: He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.

Sale : It is he who hath sent his apostle with the direction, and true religion: That he may cause it to appear superior to every [other] religion; although the idolaters be averse [thereto].

Hope you read the word pagan above also. Time related term. :)

Alomost all scriptures that I know have this similar attitude. This is the nature of all religious teachings.

Would you love to see Islam prevails over the world religions? Honestly answer.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

^I don't know diwana ji, you just speak a different language than me but all those quotes in your post ooze arrogance and the word superior is even used in one of the quotes. how exactly is it showing respect for people of other beliefs when it's showing them to detest or feel averse to the quran, i just don't like how nonmuslims especially idolators, are portrayed in many of the verses that speak of them.

and in terms of other belief systems saying something similar. i'm still learning about them including islam but saying that all religions are just as harsh as what is written in the quran about non-coreligionists is wrong especially if you haven't tried to study other belief systems.

apologies but I will never see things the way those quotes in your post see it so i would prefer not to carry on with this discussion anymore please.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

Well you have tried to run away after making comments which are not true.

When you said 'averse to quran' That is not even close to what verse said. it said averse to the situation where Islam would somehow prevail-according to Quran.

You said it is arrogance, but all it says that despite idoltors may not like it Islam will prevail. Simple statement. So where is arrogance.

I already said this is the attitude of almost all scriptures.

Besides: Once again you did not answer me a simple and direct question. Second time. :)

Let me repeat: Would you love to see Islam prevail over other religions?

Sincere advice. Have an open mind and keep searching. Even muslims who claim to be muslims do that all the time.

A real good muslim is never sure of his destiny either. That is what makes muslims different from some other religious people. Nowhere Allah has given assurance to those who 'claim to be' muslims that they will go to heaven/jannat. Please read carefully what I wrote.

It is not a guarentee for a muslim to do few deeds and jannat is written for that person from day one. Nope. Not at all as far as I understand.

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Re: Tony Blair’s SIL Converts to Islam!

i don’t know why you keep saying that i’m running away from the off topic discussion we’re having, it’s a waste of your and my time. i love lots of things about islam like i said b4 but if i was to be seen as an evil idolator b/c i have no problem if a person prays to an idol to feel that oneness with God, then i guess according to those verses i’m wishing that islam not prevail. It knows me, the evil idolator, so well.

well if you ask my personal opinion, i would prefer there not to be any religions so none of them should prevail over the world, all religious books have loads of inspirational, stunning verses in them but unfortunately all are flawed in one way or another. a simple belief in God is enough for me. a muslim friend of mine had once said a pretty deep line “free God from the chains of religion” i hold that quote close to my heart and this one "Whatever wish men(all human beings) bring me in worship, that wish I grant them. Whatever path(belief/religion) men travel is my(God’s) path: no matter where they walk it leads to me.” <—that one totally integrates all humanity, i love it. Rumi’s quote in my signature is pretty deep, he was way ahead of his time.

and i’ll say it again if you haven’t made the effort to study other scriptures of other religions, don’t say that they all say the same as what the quran says about superiority over all religions and have verses about non-coreligionists similar to the ones in the quran. i’ve always asked for clarification of any verse in the quran which i have quoted since i am not a muslim.

since i’ve answered your simple question, i think we’ve totally derailed from the topic of the thread don’t you think, is it fair to the TS and are we just trying to make this a mega hit thread by getting it to 100 posts? :vivo:

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Re: Tony Blair’s SIL Converts to Islam!

You are not considered evil by any means. The act of idol worshipng is not liked by Islam and other religions.

Quotes from Hindu Scripture Bhagvad Geeta:

chapter Two:

Verse 31

Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

Verse 32

O Partha, happy are the ksatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come unsought, opening for them the doors of the heavenly planets.

Verse 33
If, however, you do not fight this religious war, then you will certainly incur sins for neglecting your duties and thus lose your reputation as a fighter.

Verse 36
Your enemies will describe you in many unkind words and scorn your ability. What could be more painful for you?

Verse 37
O son of Kunti, either you will be killed on the battlefield and attain the heavenly planets, or you will conquer and enjoy the earthly kingdom. Therefore get up and fight with determination.

Humm, ’

‘Religious fight’ is promoted in Hinduism.

Others are called enemies.

Here I am not criticising Hinduism, I am only showing what the scripture says.

Yes, Islam came to abolish idol worshiping. Other monothestic religions claim to be against Hinduism idol worshiping.

The topic has changed and I have no problem if thread gets split.

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Re: Tony Blair’s SIL Converts to Islam!

OK Nisha since you may be busy, let me add my response to middle paragraph with a quote from a ‘muslims friend’ or other statemet related to Rumi.

Religion as a word is a bigger term as one can expect. Religion does not have one definition.

However, one may take God away altogether from his/her ‘religious’ practice, but if the person agrees to believe in God, then he person has limited choices.

Merely believing in God and doing something a person just makes up as a human being, is contradictory.

Regarding Rumi quote: Nothing new.

Now with your signature and it’s theme, enjoy this Ghazal which brings same theme:

Just a ghazal, not really Islamically correct. Don’t take it seriously or literally. :slight_smile:

This great ghazal is sung by melodious Farida Khanum. Somehow it has Munni Begum Picture.

If anyone need help in translation I am right here.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

:p diwana you just won't give up
so if a muslim person brings a nonmuslim close to islam and to revert and say
La Ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur akhri Rasulullah what does the muslim that got say, me, to revert get in jannat according to the quran? i've asked this b4 to other muslims, they couldn't give me an answer

if say, most all christian majority countries get half of their population reverted to islam, the very religious christian countries like italy wouldn't like it too much. would the two expansionist, abrahamic religions go head to head here, it would be scary for the rest of us nonmuslims seeing those times of religious wars coming back

would the world be a more peaceful place to live if all were muslim? taking into account that there's sectarian divisions. to you islam might be perfect but the humans that read and interpret those verses as they see fit with all their prejudices aren't so perfect. they will take those verses out of context. sectarian violence all starts b/c of that.

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Re: Tony Blair’s SIL Converts to Islam!

btw, my fav islamic naat very beautiful :wink: :slight_smile:

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

Nisha:

You have a great way of bringing new item to the table and try to run.

I feel like feeding a great big troll here to be serious. You are not as naive as you pretend to be in your posts.

You brought the sectarian issue for a purpose. You are being slowly exposed here. :p

The so called fear of 'non muslims' of any theoretical clash between two/three monotheistic religions is fake one.

Hinduism will and has rejoiced this clash so far. If one follows closely Indian politics, in order to subdue their long term rivals AKA muslims/Arabs or Pakistan/Christians, they have made friends with Russia first (Socialists/communists), then US and Israel. It will always be in the interst of Hindus to see that clash. Even if one wins, to them, at least one 'enemy' will be eliminated.

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

you answered none of my questions with concrete answers, anyways, i never said i was naive, where do i ever say that or have shown that? i've studied islam, i have a genuine affection for it, what exactly have you exposed about me. I've spoken my mind all this time.

for the last time, plz dont bring up other religions unless there is a hinduism scholar or anybody that is vastly knowledgeable on any other religion present as well.

so now that i have been honored with the name of troll, do you really think, nonmuslim me will continue this discussion with you? dream on

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Re: Tony Blair's SIL Converts to Islam!

Only reason I brought Hinduism was you said earlier in post 87 I was wrong in saying all scriptures have similar approach and I have not tried studying other religions.

I answered all your points and it shows above. You kept coming up with new items and avoiding what was being discussed. Thank you for speaking your mind.