Great discussion, all of yous, NYAhmadi, Achtung, Roman. My only problem with Ploygamy is that only men are permitted and women aren't.
A religion cannot claim that both men and women are equal and then give men the right to marry 4 times and not give the same right to women. That is a religion contradicting itself.
I agree with you, the status of polygamy in modern day is something which perhaps should be re-evaluated, by well-versed scholars.
I don't think the practice of 'polygamy' * has * to put women in a "disadvantageous" position. If we keep in mind that all parties have options - than women are as empowered as men to make their own decision, on weather or not to engage in a polygamous relationship. If they don't want to, they don't have to. Unfortunately such stipulations are often ignored and abused.
As mentioned previously, Islam regulated polygamy (by opening up options for all parties - including divorce), restricted polygamy (by limiting it to 4 wives), yet permitted its existence (especially in cases of war). Polygamy is permitted as an exceptional case but not encouraged. Polygamy was partially justified by citing the need to care for widows and orphans of war. Is such a justification valid now? It may actually be.
For example, in the Afghan-Soviet war, 20 per cent of Afghan women were widowed and 1 million children were orphaned or lost their 'bread winning' fathers (that's a lot of people, see Robert Cohen and Jennifer Parmalee, * Afghanistan's Children the Rough Road to Peace, * New York, 1990, page 1 and 14). Widowhood has lead to a large case of destitute women in Afghanistan, who suffer from malnutrition, along with their children. Also documented are cases of loneliness and mental disease. In Afghanistan there is no social net to help these women and the * Pushtun * culture is not accepting of women working or educating women. So here we have a modern example where polygamy may serve the same function it did 1400 years ago. Who will provide (or should provide) for 20% of Afghanistan's female population and 1 million helpless children? Islam provides one option, perhaps not ideal when evaluated by other cultural standards, but an option nevertheless. An option which is being put in place in light of drastic cuts in funding to Afghanistan. If the Afghan example is not sufficient, perhaps another example will arise in the future, one we don't know about at this time.
The utmost thing is that justice is retained in a marriage. If one party feels that injustice is being done (whether through a polygamous relationship or otherwise) they have grounds for action, including divorce. All parties have a choice. In Islam one cannot force a marriage, whether it be with the first wife or fourth. Also remember that polygamy is an exception - not a rule.
Achtung
I agree with you, the status of polygamy in modern day is something which perhaps should be re-evaluated, by well-versed scholars.
I don't think the practice of 'polygamy' * has * to put women in a "disadvantageous" position. If we keep in mind that all parties have options - than women are as empowered as men to make their own decision, on weather or not to engage in a polygamous relationship. If they don't want to, they don't have to. Unfortunately such stipulations are often ignored and abused.
As mentioned previously, Islam regulated polygamy (by opening up options for all parties - including divorce), restricted polygamy (by limiting it to 4 wives), yet permitted its existence (especially in cases of war). Polygamy is permitted as an exceptional case but not encouraged. Polygamy was partially justified by citing the need to care for widows and orphans of war. Is such a justification valid now? It may actually be.
For example, in the Afghan-Soviet war, 20 per cent of Afghan women were widowed and 1 million children were orphaned or lost their 'bread winning' fathers (that's a lot of people, see Robert Cohen and Jennifer Parmalee, * Afghanistan's Children the Rough Road to Peace, * New York, 1990, page 1 and 14). Widowhood has lead to a large case of destitute women in Afghanistan, who suffer from malnutrition, along with their children. Also documented are cases of loneliness and mental disease. In Afghanistan there is no social net to help these women and the * Pushtun * culture is not accepting of women working or educating women. So here we have a modern example where polygamy may serve the same function it did 1400 years ago. Who will provide (or should provide) for 20% of Afghanistan's female population and 1 million helpless children? Islam provides one option, perhaps not ideal when evaluated by other cultural standards, but an option nevertheless. An option which is being put in place in light of drastic cuts in funding to Afghanistan. If the Afghan example is not sufficient, perhaps another example will arise in the future, one we don't know about at this time.
The utmost thing is that justice is retained in a marriage. If one party feels that injustice is being done (whether through a polygamous relationship or otherwise) they have grounds for action, including divorce. All parties have a choice. In Islam one cannot force a marriage, whether it be with the first wife or fourth. Also remember that polygamy is an exception - not a rule.
Achtung
Achtung:
[quote]
women are as empowered as men to make their own decision, on weather or not to engage in a polygamous relationship
[/quote]
No it's not. It gives the option to have four spouses only to men, not to women. Only one party has the advantange of this 'want', not the both with their respective gender counterparts.
[quote]
If they don't want to, they don't have to. Unfortunately such stipulations are often ignored and abused
[/quote]
Exactly one of the points I raised above. why permit something at collective level which can easily be abused and ignored?
For your Afghanistan example, does it mean that the 'exceptional circusmstances' which exist in one geographical location should lead the implementation of a rule in dozens of other Muslim counteries where those 'exception circumstances' don't exist? Just because certain circumstances exist in one particular geographic location does not mean to apply a rule in other geogpraphic location where the same rule can easily be manipulated, abused, and unjustified.
[quote]
If the Afghan example is not sufficient, perhaps another example will arise in the future, one we don't know about at this time.
[/quote]
Yes, it is not sufficient as I argued above. And, exactly, we don't know if same situation will arise in dozens of other counteries as well or not, so why not look at the present for now and deal with any 'exceptional circumstances' if they arise in future? We can deal with it when it will come (in this particual case), why bother now based on a an extremly negligible prababality of its happening in undeterminable future?
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited August 24, 1999).]
Asalamu Alaikum,
Just wondering.. but are you looking for scholars to look at the act of polgamy, and change it for the current time? If that's the case, then you are asking for a change in Islam. Allah(SWT) has made this halaal for mankind, and whether you like it or not, or whether you practice it or not, it really doesn't matter. If Allah(SWT) has made something allowable, then there must be some wisdom behind it.
If you can just imagine back 1400 years ago, when the Qur'an was first revealed, there are so many things in it, that would not have been understood, eg. the ayahs about embriology, or even the stuff about space. But you wouldn't have the Sahabahs sitting around discussing whether Allah(SWT) was right in the stuff He revealed even though they didn't understand it.
Personally, I have no problem with people discussing the wisdom behind some of the rules in Islam, but when you talk about changing them for current times, that's when you go too far. Just remember Allah(SWT) perfected this religion over 1400 years ago.
W'salam
Asalamu Alaikum,
One more thing, just some personal opinion as to why women aren't allowed to have more than one husband could be so that the lineage of any children is never in doubt..
W'salam
Personally I don't think women can ever be equal to men unless they can somehow aquire the ability to impregnate men...and men can grow breasts. With the wondes of modern science this is more than likely possible before too long. And with the wonders of modern thinking it is more than likely probable. Pass the lipstick NYAhmadi?
I'm sort of not sure about the re-examining polygamy argument - I think polygamy may be one of those gray areas that needs to be examined by Islamic scholars - in particular in relation to its purpose in today's time and age. Like other pre-modern practices (i.e. temporary marriage or * muta * , slavery). Rules regarding its application should be made more clear to eliminate confusion. In my opinion, certain cultures which continue to live in what may be perceived to be a pre-modern state, polygamy may be valid and applicable even today (this is why I wouldn't write it off).
Roman: "No it's not. It gives the option to have four spouses only to men, not to women. Only one party has the advantange of this 'want', not the both with their respective gender counterparts."
If you limit polygamy in Islam to a 'want' you ignore its purpose, limiting it to a tool for male sexual pleasure and female sexual oppression - which it is not. The reason females are not permitted to marry 4 husbands' lies in the purpose for permitting polygamy in the first place. That purpose is not for the sexual gratification of males. Polygamy is an exceptional marriage permitted in cases where a level of equity can be maintained between wives, where wives agree to such an agreement and often utilized as a tool to deal with contingencies arising from losses in war and consequential widowhood. In a pre-modern era men didn't become widows, they provided for themselves (when their spouses passed on) - the same was not the case with female widows. In many Islamic cultures today men are still the preferred and often the primary breadwinners of the family. Polygamy thus serves as a sort of pre-modern welfare system - providing for widows of war. Women marrying four men also leads to lineal confusion (as Yacoob as mentioned)and consequential legal ramifications, pertaining to inheritance. Who gets what - the most 'probable' son or daughter?
Roman: "why permit something at collective level which can easily be abused and ignored?"
All rules in Islam can be abused and ignored. All rules of any type can be abused or ignored. In the end its the rule-breaker who must face his creator. Rules whether pertaining to monogamous relationships or polygamous relationships are broken. The rationale behind polygamy makes sense if its instituted properly. Lots of good rules can be abused and ignored.
Roman: "For your Afghanistan example, does it mean that the 'exceptional circusmstances' which exist >in one geographical location should lead the implementation of a rule in dozens of other Muslim >counteries where those 'exception circumstances' don't exist?"
Different cultures have different perceptions regarding polygamy. Some are favorable, others not so favorable. Even within Islamic circles. That doesn't undermine the institution of polygamy, since it allows for a degree of flexibility, providing all parties involved with choices. If polygamy doesn't suit a culture it need not be applied. On another note, many Islamic societies are still operating on traditional systems, in which polygamy may be a valid solution in certain circumstances (I'm thinking of some African countries and Afghanistan here, where no social nets exist to help widows or orphans). On the other hand polygamy may not suit the cultures of European Muslims.
Roman: "We can deal with it when it will come (in this particual case), why bother now based on a an >extremly negligible prababality of its happening in undeterminable future?"
We really don't know how negligible that probability is. I'm not an avid supporter of polygamous relationships. I don't know any practicing Muslims who engage in such marriages. I can see where it may provide a benefit. If no injustice is involved in its application, I really don't see any harm.
I don't know if I have anything else to say about this topic. Camille's post on polygamy is similar to my own thoughts on the subject. Its an alternate view on the topic.
Achtung
*
"The status of polygamy in Islam is no more and no less than that of a permissible act. And, like any other act lawful in principle, it becomes forbidden if it involves unlawful things or leads to unlawful consequences such as injustice." (Hamudah Abd Al Ati) *
Assalamualaikum,
Nice article by Sister Shariffa Carlo Al Andalusia. As I always say, there's nothing wrong with polygamy as long as it's done the Islamic way.
Polygamy has no place in the age we live in.
Polygamy should be completely abolished from all Islamic countries.
yacoob i really liked your last reply. i also liked a lot of what u said achtung. queer i am just curious as to what religion u are b/c u seem kinda anti-islamic
Reagan, you sound authoritive, its not necessary that whatever you think can be implemented....
As we have said again and again, Islam is for all times, nothing could be moulded, changed or fabricated for modern times....
Its not in Islam, that if you feel that something you don't like, so you change it.
Polygomy is permitted in Islam, its not that one must follow it, its that one is permitted to do so....
If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody.
unfair as it may seem at first, i think (and i did a quite a bit of thinking) the islamic law allowing polgamy and not polygyny is equally, if not more, useful now than before. it is just something that came in my head so if u want the reference, i am the reference.
to understand my proposal we have to consider that ppl WANT to all islamic orders.
stats by experts show that the population of women is now a lot more than that of the men. even in america. we also know that women want sex like men do. so if one man married one woman a whole bunch of women wouldnt have anybody to have sex with unless they commited fornication or adultery. but they wouldnt want to do any of these cuz in islam (and other major religions and cultures too) that is a major sin. so allowing a man to marry more than one woman is a good solution to keep a woman from adultery. now a woman cant adulterate alone can she? she needs a man. so the man is saved too. besides sex, here we would have one man providing for 4 or less women. sex aint life. atleast the man could provide the wife with real items like food shelter and stuff like that.
now lets suppose this totally "unfair" islamic law that doesnt allow polygyny was changed to that polygyny was allowed. now one women marries 4 men. so now we have 4 men providing for one woman! so..... we have this one really really lucky woman and a whole whole whole bunch of women not provided for and needing sex too. they can work and stuff and provide for their food and stuff but what about sexual gratification?
another "solution" may be to allow both. and then we could have a man with 4 wives and each of those wives having 4 husbands and each of those husbands in turn having 4 wives and so on and so on...... WOW!
may the Lord have mercy on all the gay men out there and the women they leave unmarried.
Yaseeny,
Reagan, you sound authoritive, its not necessary that whatever you think can be implemented....
Strange! First you say I sound authoritive.
Then you make an authoritive statement yourself ??
Its not in Islam,
that if you feel that something you don't like, so you change it.
Polygomy is permitted in Islam, its not that one must follow it, its that one is permitted to do so....
If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody.
WARNING SIGN:
IF YOU DONT BELEIVE IN DARWIN THEORY SO DONT READ FURTHER.
According what the scientist have observed in animal kingdom (All kind of animal) there has been very good supporting observation which support Darwin theory. Take for example animal like seals and lions. what they do, all males are fighting each to get acess to those female lions.
so the question is why such system exist?
Because it is the only way to secure that only your genes will be surpassed to next generation. In that way only the strongest win. That the same in sosial society. the person who has much money can afford more wife ordinary man. In that way he can many kids where he has secured his genes for next generation. I am fasinated that The Holy Quran has actually mentioned indirectly this darwin theory.
I hope i did not make you sick of this, but we must admit it. As i read somewhere in internet it said "your view of how world is made up will be totally canged after reading the stuff in this website. .......... i had to read on.
the knowlegde is more sharper than a laserknife.
shamas
This has turned into a meaningless discussion, more concentrated on personal jabs than anything. This is a religious issue, and if one isnt a muslim, he shouldnt even be taking part in the discussion. Whats written in the Holy Quran is what Allah(SWT) has said. If you cant agree with it, then dont. Thats your own choice, but to try to manipulate the religion according to ur own needs is just meaningless. All the religions in the world, except the ones followed by the 4 books revelated by Allah(SWT) are man made, and it is natural to make changes to them and manipulate them according to what pleases you. As for Jewism and christianity, their books are no longer safe in the form as they were revelated by Allah(SWT), so basically they too have turned into man made religions. Islam is the only way of life, that was sent by Allah(SWT), and still remains in its original form, when quoted from the Quran, and Allah(SWT) Himself has taken the responsibility of safeguarding it till the end. So no matter what people like NYAhmadi and others may do to manipulate and "adjust" Islam in order to cover their needs, its not gonna change, and there always will be people following the true path. You can call it fundamentalism, or fanatism, or whatever else you please, but the fact remains that as a Muslim, we have no other obligation than to follow the commands of Allah(SWT) rather than follow Asma Jahangir or others, trying to practice selective Islam. Its not being forced upon anyone. You can accept it, or you can reject it. What happens in the life thereafter is in the hands of Allah. We are not here to judge, and we dont have a right to.
Shamas,
What happens if a man is rich, but has all kinds of genetically related illnesses ??
Akif,
Well, I think everyone has a right to participate in the discussion, although it can sometimes be frustrating when uninformed people participate. But it's not just the non-muslims that are sometimes uninformed.
By the way, what does Asma Jahangir do that is against Islam? Women have a lot of rights in Islam that are not awarded them in Pakistan, which I'm sure we all already know, blah, blah, blah, but I'm just curious what you think.
Zara
Akif:
[quote]
All the religions in the world, except the ones followed by the 4 books revelated by Allah(SWT) are man made, and it is natural to make changes to them and manipulate them according to what pleases you. As for Jewism and christianity, their books are no longer safe in the form as they were revelated by Allah(SWT), so basically they too have turned into man made religions
[/quote]
You just passed comments to other religions in the above quote. If you can do it, yet being a non-believer to those religions, then why a non-muslim can't pass comments on Islam?
Dear Reagan!
very good question!
unfortunatly we have to live with it. But If we look at Islam and what they say about the women right to get married her own choice. to answer your question, the second wife will refuse him!!! after knowing that his first wife children are not "cutes" or children are somekind of "misfoster". So the woman will of course refuse him. But that doesnt happend in the natural wildlife animal kingdom. the lion who is weak cant challenge the one who is strong. Therefore the rule say "the survival of fittest".
But of course in OUR culture i have seen many male who have many wife, i get shocked when i get the information that the guys arent so good looking. They had money and the poor family wanted to get their daugther married to rich family. Look at indian movies. good example......
the knowlegde is more sharper than a laserknife.
shamas