The Prophet's "extra-Qur'anic" authority

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

I believe armughal has already briefly addressed this issue. And in fact, citing this verse doesn’t change what he has already said. The “completeness” of the Qur’an includes the fact that it refers to specific sources outside of itself from which man can obtain information and understanding, such as the Prophet’s (s) example/Sunnah.

To give a few examples, the Qur’an doesn’t give us the names of all the many Prophets and Messengers sent to mankind; it doesn’t tell us the year in which revelation first came to Prophet Muhammad (s); it doesn’t tell us why a jinn, Iblis, was up there with the angels when he was commanded to bow to Adam (as); nor who Dhul-Qurnain was, and so on. So in this sense the Qur’an has not “explained everything clearly” and we shouldn’t expect it to do so. If you still insist that the Qur’an does indeed explain “everything” then kindly refer me to some clear verses that provide answers to the examples i’ve given.

Maududi made a quite pertinent observation when commenting on 16:89:

“… some people tend to make an altogether erroneous interpretation of ‘explaining everything clearly’ and similar statements in other verses of the Qur’an. They take the statement in a purely literal sense to mean that every single thing has been laid down and explained in the Qur’an.”

Furthermore, the statement in this verse “explaining everything clearly” is not necessarily meant to be all inclusive in that it means absolutely everything has been explained. Rather it should be taken to mean that the Qur’an contains whatever Allah wanted to explain.

“Then We gave Moses the Torah, to complete (Our favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy…” (6:154)

Are we to now accept that the Torah was exactly same as the Qur’an and did it therefore contain absolutely everything that the Qur’an contains? It must do if both books explain “everything”. So do you accept that in content the Torah and Qur’an are the same? Yet that would only be the case if we understand verse 16:89 in the way that you seem to be hinting at (an understanding that creates more problems than it tries to solve). Or is it that the term “everything” is to be understood restrictively and that in fact it is only by restricting the meaning of “everything” in these verses that you overcome the possibility that the Torah and Qur’an are exactly the same?

The Tablets given to Moses also receive a similar description in the Qur’an:

“And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things…” (7:145)

Are you able to categorically state that when the term “kuli shay” (everything) is used in the Qur’an that it is always used in an unrestricted, all inclusive sense?

And Allah knows best.

Iqbal

22

p.s. See you guys next week, just leaving on a few days break with the family. Take care.

Iqbal

23

Iqbal Sahib,

Your arguments are so fundamentaly flawed that I don't know where to begin showing you the errors.

From a confident, "let's look at the Qur'an to prove something" you are now back to the usual hadith-thumping "it must be so because we believe in it".

Here's what you said, I quote:

[quote]
This extra-Qur'anic revelation came to be recorded in the hadith literature, and if authentically related back to the Prophet (s), these hadith constitute both an authoritative explanation of the Qur'an and a valid basis for Islamic law.
[/quote]

Now please stay focused and explain how you took this huge leap from trying to understand the meaning of a verse in the Qur'an, assuming that it refers to an incident of change of Qibla and then since you cannot find another verse on the topic immediately jumping to the conclusion that it must have been extra Qur'anic revelation and not stopping there but making another erroneous leap, defying all logic and deductive reasoning and arriving at the statement quoted above.

So I ask you again, if you believe that these revelations were the same as hadiths, then bring us a hadith which narrates the Prophet himself telling the people about the earlier change of Qibla as he received in his "extra-Qur'anic revelation". Now don't run away.. don't hide.. don't make excuses or change the subject.. show us how solid you are in your reasoning.

And I asked for authentic because I may not be a believer in that literature but many of our readers are.. so for their benefit, stick to something they can reconcile with.

Many Thanks in advance and enjoy your break.

24

To be very honest, this is an issue I am still confused about. And have been reading different points of views and history to get a better understanding. Maybe one of the reasons is that I have always consider no difference between the Sunnah & Quran.

In other words, AnHazoor (saw) himself was Quran & he cannot do/say anything contradictory to Quran or outside of it. But then there are issues like the ones discussed in this very thread ...

The core issues I am struggling with are:

(1) Is ALL the Sunnah constitute the law and thus becomes mandatory.
(2) Part of Sunnah is the law (mandatory), the other part is moral code (not mandatory)
(3) Sunnah is the best example; though its evident that not everyone has the spiritual potential to follow it in each & every way. And so it recommended but not made mandatory.

Example of # 1 is the law about facing Kabba. Example of #2 is how one performs salat. Example of #3 would be Salat-ul-Tahajud, which is AnHazoor (saw) sunnah, yet its not mandatory!

25

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *

We do have that source, refer to my earlier reply to PyariCgudia.

Iqbal
[/QUOTE]

by "other source" I was referring to the book or whatever that Mohammad(SAW) was using to guide the believers. Actually, there was no source other than Qur'an!! If there is/was anything then why don't we know about it? Hadiths explain what's in Qur'an. They don't add things to Qur'an that's what I think!

Where does it say in Quran that Mohammad(SAW) will or could add things to Islam? you have any reference from Qur'an?

** Ahmedjee** About the Qiblah....please re-read these two verses:

*"And thus We have made you a midmost(justly balanced) community so that you may be witnesses to mankind and the Messenger may be a witness to you. And We appointed not the Qiblah which you (O Prophet) have had except in order that We might know who followed the Messenger, from him who turned back on his heels. And it was a hard thing save for those whom Allah will not let your faith go to waste. Surely Allah is to mankind Gracious, Merciful." 2:143

"Indeed We have seen you (O Prophet) turning your face (repeatedly) towards heaven; now We will surely make you turn towards the Qiblah you like the best; so turn your faces towards the Sacred Mosque(Ka'bah) and wherever you are (O believers), turn your faces towards it. And those who have been given the Book certainly know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not heedless of what they do." 2:144*

Do you still believe that extra Qur'anic information exists? Allah has mentioned everything in the Qur'an and Sunnah only explains by describing Mohammad(SAW)'s actions and words, nothing was added to Qur'an.

26

This is what I have gathered from Qur'an which will help you guys to rethink....InshAllah!

***(1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45.

Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete. **

"..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

"(Say): "Shall I then seek for a judge other than Allah, and He is (Allah) who has revealed this Book to you fully explained?" And those whom We gave the Book(aforetime) know that it is revealed from your Lord with the truth; so be not you(O Prophet) of the doubters." 6:114

"And perfect are the words of your Lord in truthfullness and justice; there is none who can change His words; and He is the Hearer, the Knower." 6:115

"......This(Qur'an) is not tale forged, but a comfirmation of what is before it, and a DETAILED exposition of EVERYTHING and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." 12:111

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115

*(2) The Quran is perfect; no mistakes, no falsehood, no nonsense. *

"No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." 41:42

".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the PERFECT RELIGION, but most people do not know." 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5).

*(3) The Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed. God does not do half jobs. *

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114 (See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111)

"And this Qur'an is not such as could be forged against Allah, but it is a confirmation of that which was before it, and a detailed exposition of the Book; therein is no doubt, it is from the Lord of the worlds." 10:37

"And certainly We have brought them (the disbelievers of all times) a Book which We have expounded with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for people who believe." 7:52

*(4) God does not need any addition to His book. God teaches us in the Quran that He does not run out of words and that if He so willed He could have given us hundreds, thousands or millions of books besides the Quran (see 18:109). Since the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, God did not give us any more books. *

"Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord even if we added another ocean like it for its aid." 18:109

*(5) God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50. *

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

"Allah has (now) sent down the most excellent discourse, a Book alike throughout, oft-repeating(its teachings), whereat shiver the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts soften to Allah's remembrance. This is Allah's guidance- He guides with it whomsoever He will. And he whom Allah sends astray, there is no guide for him." 39:23

"These are the revealations of Allah, which We recite to you (O Prophet) in truth. Then in what discourse, after Allah and His revealations, will they believe?" 45:6

*(6) God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, transgressors, liars and idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87, 9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59. *

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not transgress; God dislikes the transgressors." 5:87

"Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to God?" 10:59

**(7) Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own. His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100.

Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that God admonished him publicly, see 66:1 **

"O you prophet, why do you prohibit what GOD has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? GOD is Forgiver, Merciful." 66:1

"But if they turn away, We have not sent you (O Prophet) as a watcher over them. Your duty is only to convey the Message. And surely when We let man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices therewith. And if some evil befalls them because of what their own hands have forwarded, then surely man is ingrate." 42:48

"The duty of the Messenger is only to convey (the Message)." 13:40

66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful. NO ONE can attribute to Muhammed a prohibition that God did not give him in the Quran. Anyone who tries to do so is admitting his/her refusal of God's words and commandments in the Quran.

**(8) The TRUE believers KNOW that when God says something, He means it, and when He does not, he means it as well. Everything given to us in the Quran was done deliberately and everything left out was also left out deliberately.

God does not forget. **

"....And your Lord is never forgetfull." 19:64

*(9) God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read. *

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36 *

27

[QUOTE]

his is what I have gathered from Qur'an which will help you guys to rethink....InshAllah! 

                          (1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45. 

                          Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete. 

                          "..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38 

                          "(Say): "Shall I then seek for a judge other than Allah, and He is (Allah) who has revealed this Book to
                          you fully explained?" And those whom We gave the Book(aforetime) know that it is revealed from your
                          Lord with the truth; so be not you(O Prophet) of the doubters." 6:114 

                          "And perfect are the words of your Lord in truthfullness and justice; there is none who can change His
                          words; and He is the Hearer, the Knower." 6:115 

                          "......This(Qur'an) is not tale forged, but a comfirmation of what is before it, and a DETAILED
                          exposition of EVERYTHING and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." 12:111 

                          "The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the
                          Hearer, the Omniscient." 6:115 

                          (2) The Quran is perfect; no mistakes, no falsehood, no nonsense. 

                          "No falsehood could enter it (Quran), in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise,
                          Praiseworthy." 41:42 

                          ".......All ruling belongs to God, and He has ruled that you shall not worship except Him. This is the
                          PERFECT RELIGION, but most people do not know." 12:40 (see also 30:30, 30:43 and 98:5). 

                          (3) The Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed.
                          God does not do half jobs. 

                          "Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
                          Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You
                          shall not harbor any doubt." 6:114 (See also, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111) 

                          "And this Qur'an is not such as could be forged against Allah, but it is a confirmation of that which was
                          before it, and a detailed exposition of the Book; therein is no doubt, it is from the Lord of the worlds."
                          10:37 

                          "And certainly We have brought them (the disbelievers of all times) a Book which We have expounded
                          with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for people who believe." 7:52 

                          (4) God does not need any addition to His book. God teaches us in the Quran that He does not
                          run out of words and that if He so willed He could have given us hundreds, thousands or millions
                          of books besides the Quran (see 18:109). Since the Quran is complete, perfect and fully
                          detailed, God did not give us any more books. 

                          "Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord sooner would the ocean
                          be exhausted than would the words of my Lord even if we added another ocean like it for its aid."
                          18:109 

                          (5) God calls His book, the Quran, the BEST HADITH. HE called on His true believers to accept no
                          other hadiths as a source of this perfect religion . See 7:185, 31:6, 39:23, 45:6, and 77:50. 

                          "Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has
                          created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides
                          this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185 

                          "Allah has (now) sent down the most excellent discourse, a Book alike throughout, oft-repeating(its
                          teachings), whereat shiver the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts
                          soften to Allah's remembrance. This is Allah's guidance- He guides with it whomsoever He will. And he
                          whom Allah sends astray, there is no guide for him." 39:23 

                          "These are the revealations of Allah, which We recite to you (O Prophet) in truth. Then in what
                          discourse, after Allah and His revealations, will they believe?" 45:6 

                          (6) God calls those who prohibit what He did not prohibit, transgressors, liars and
                          idol-worshipers. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death. See, 5:87,
                          9:37, 7:32, 6:119, 6:140 and 10:59. 

                          "O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not transgress;
                          God dislikes the transgressors." 5:87 

                          "Say, "Did you note how God sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them
                          unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did God give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and
                          attribute them to God?" 10:59 

                          (7) Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet
                          and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he
                          (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world.
                          The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with
                          the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own. His job was to
                          deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100. 

                          Muhammed cannot prohibit things, or make lawful things on his own. When he tried to do that
                          God admonished him publicly, see 66:1 

                          "O you prophet, why do you prohibit what GOD has made lawful for you, just to please your wives?
                          GOD is Forgiver, Merciful." 66:1 

                          "But if they turn away, We have not sent you (O Prophet) as a watcher over them. Your duty is only
                          to convey the Message. And surely when We let man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices therewith. And
                          if some evil befalls them because of what their own hands have forwarded, then surely man is
                          ingrate." 42:48 

                          "The duty of the Messenger is only to convey (the Message)." 13:40 

                          66:1 reminds us that God is the only ONE to prohibit or make things lawful. NO ONE can attribute to
                          Muhammed a prohibition that God did not give him in the Quran. Anyone who tries to do so is
                          admitting his/her refusal of God's words and commandments in the Quran. 

                          (8) The TRUE believers KNOW that when God says something, He means it, and when He does
                          not, he means it as well. Everything given to us in the Quran was done deliberately and
                          everything left out was also left out deliberately. 

                          God does not forget. 

                          "....And your Lord is never forgetfull." 19:64 


                          (9) God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read. 

                          "You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing,
                          the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36

[/QUOTE]

** Filhaal:
dear CurruptAngel, although you are a 'currupt angel', i totally agree with what you have posted here. The BOOK OF GOD IS COMPLETE, FULLY-DETAILED AND PERFECT FOR OUR SALVATION!!
**

28

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
**Iqbal Sahib, Your arguments are so fundamentaly flawed that I don't know where to begin showing you the errors.*
[/quote]

That, my friend, is the whole problem.... you haven't even bothered to expose the flaws in my argument. It isn't flawed just because you say it is flawed! So why, instead of skirting around the issues i've raised, don't you actually make a start and show where the errors are. Instead you want me to spoon-feed you one or more hadith. If you believe that the hadith you've requested doesn't exist, then why don't you just categorically state so and build your argument from there. All you've done so far is sit on the fence, throwing stones. Hardly a very academic approach. (Oh, and by the way, in case you'd missed it earlier - the absence of a hadith doesn't disprove the "extra-Qur'anic" revelation argument i put forward. But i'll leave you to deal with that problem.)

Since you appear to be deliberately avoiding the main point of my first post and subsequent follow-up, let me summarise it for your again:

The first Muslim Qibla was appointed by Allah, yet we are informed of this only after the appointment had taken place (Qur'an 2:143). In other words, the legislation came first through the person of the Prophet Muhammad (s) whilst the verse confirming it came some time afterwards. Since the verse legislating the first Qibla does not itself appear in the Qur'an we can conclude that the Muslim community at that time were satisfied in obeying the Prophet's (s) directive to face Jerusalem despite there being no specific Qur'anic verse to support it.

So the point is - and please pay attention this time - that something was legislated in Islam in the absence of a Qur'anic verse to support it at the time of its legislation. No hadith is needed to prove my assertion, the entire proof is in Qur'an 2:143 as i've already explain in detail. Do you accept that it was Allah Himself who appointed the first Qibla and that its legislation was introduced to the Muslim community outside of the Qur'an? If your answers is 'Yes' then my point about "extra-Qur'anic" revelation is proven. On the other hand, if you choose to answer in the negative, then the only way that you can disprove my argument is if you can point us to a Qur'anic text revealed prior to 2:143 that establishes the first Qibla for the Muslims.

It appears you've also avoided "exposing the flaws" in my response to your "any room left for argument?" post. It's the easiest thing in the world to answer the simple questions - although as far as this thread is concerned you haven't even done that yet - but if you want people to take you seriously, you have to face the tough questions sooner or later. If you can't answer them, just say so, i'll fully understand.

Again, for your benefit, let me summarise my follow-up post as well:

"The 'completeness' of the Qur'an includes the fact that it refers to specific sources outside of itself from which man can obtain information and understanding, such as the Prophet's (s) example/Sunnah. To give a few examples, the Qur'an doesn't give us the names of all the many Prophets and Messengers sent to mankind; it doesn't tell us the year in which revelation first came to Prophet Muhammad (s); it doesn't tell us why a jinn, Iblis, was up there with the angels when he was commanded to bow to Adam (as); nor who Dhul-Qurnain was, and so on. So in this sense the Qur'an has not 'explained everything clearly' and we shouldn't expect it to do so. If you still insist that the Qur'an does indeed explain 'everything' then kindly refer me to some clear verses that provide answers to the examples i've given. Also, more than one scripture in the Qur'an is described as being an 'explanation for everything'. Based on your understanding, this would necessitate that all these scriptures be the same since if two books explain 'everything' they must of a necessity contain the same information. So do you accept that the Qur'an, the Torah and the Tablets are exactly the same? If not, why not? Finally, are you able to categorically state that when the term 'kuli shay' (everything) is used in the Qur'an (e.g. 16:89) that it is always used in an unrestricted, all inclusive sense? If not, then you've defeated your own argument."

I assume you'll reply to the above once you've decided that you actually want to participate in this discussion, instead of making bold, unsubstantiated accusations.

**
[quote]
From a confident, "let's look at the Qur'an to prove something" you are now back to the usual hadith-thumping "it must be so because we believe in it".**
[/quote]

My argument about "extra-Qur'anic" revelation is proven without hadith, as i've already shown. You haven't yet discredited a single word of that. So far, i've restricted by argument entirely to the Qur'an whilst you want to discuss whether a hadith exists on the subject!!

**
[quote]
Now please stay focused and explain how you took this huge leap from trying to understand the meaning of a verse in the Qur'an, assuming that it refers to an incident of change of Qibla and then since you cannot find another verse on the topic immediately jumping to the conclusion that it must have been extra Qur'anic revelation...**
[/quote]

I have already given my explanation in full. What we haven't seen yet is any substantiation whatsoever of your claim that my argument is flawed. I refuse to write your reply for you; you are on your own with that one.

I look forward to you addressing the issues i've raised, instead of prematurely switching the discussion from the Qur'an to hadith. We'll talk about hadith, of course we will, but as i said earlier, you need to take a step back otherwise you won't see the wood for the trees.

Iqbal

29

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by CurruptAngel: *
*(1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45. Remember that when God says that His book is complete, it means 100% complete. **
[/quote]

I have addressed this already in my earlier reply to PakistaniAbroad. Here are the salient points again:

"The "completeness" of the Qur'an includes the fact that it refers to specific sources outside of itself from which man can obtain information and understanding, such as the Prophet's (s) example/Sunnah. To give a few examples, the Qur'an doesn't give us the names of all the many Prophets and Messengers sent to mankind; it doesn't tell us the year in which revelation first came to Prophet Muhammad (s); it doesn't tell us why a jinn, Iblis, was up there with the angels when he was commanded to bow to Adam (as); nor who Dhul-Qurnain was, and so on. So in this sense the Qur'an has not "explained everything clearly" and we shouldn't expect it to do so. If you still insist that the Qur'an does indeed explain "everything" then kindly refer me to some clear verses that provide answers to the examples i've given. Also, more than one scripture in the Qur'an is described as being an "explanation for everything". Based on your understanding, this would necessitate that all these scriptures be the same since if two books explain "everything" they must of a necessity contain the same information. So do you accept that the Qur'an, the Torah and the Tablets are exactly the same? If not, why not? Also, are you able to categorically state that when the term "kuli shay" (everything) is used in the Qur'an that it is always used in an unrestricted, all inclusive sense? If not, then you've defeated your own argument."

[quote]
"..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38
[/quote]

The "book" referred to in this verse is not the Qur'an but rather the Preserved Tablet (Lawhil-Mahfudh) in the heavens.

**
[quote]
"......This(Qur'an) is not tale forged, but a comfirmation of what is before it, and a DETAILED exposition of EVERYTHING and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." 12:111**
[/quote]

My previous comments apply.

**
quote The Quran is detailed, and when God says He detailed His book it means FULLY detailed. God does not do half jobs. **
[/quote]

My previous comments apply. I hope you'll address the queries i raised therein.

**
quote Muhammed is represented only by the Quran. The Prophet Muhammed was the last Prophet and a messenger of God (33:40). He was not the messenger of God because of who he (Muhammed) was, but because he was given the Quran (the message) to deliver to the world. The religion of Islam is a religion of God, not about Muhammed, who was blessed by God with the delivery of the message of the Quran. He did not have an agenda of his own. His job was to deliver to the world what God was giving him, the Quran. See 42:48, 13:40, 5:99-100.**
[/quote]

No one is suggesting that the Prophet (s) acted outside of the boundaries of Allah's Revelation or that he legislated for the Muslim community without Allah commanding him to do so. All of the Prophet's (s) religious directives were inspired by Allah and in some cases, as i have tried to show, that revelation may have been "extra-Qur'anic". It doesn't mean that just because we don't always find in the Qur'an direct support for something that the Prophet (s) said or did that he (s) must have just made it up.

**
quote God calls on His TRUE believers to verify every piece of information they see, hear or read.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them." 17:36 **
[/QUOTE]

This is a very loose translation of 17:36. You might want to look at this verse again... it doesn't say what you've made it say.

Iqbal

30

Originally posted by Iqbal:

This is not a hypothetical scenario at all. The Qur'an describes the "factual" change of the Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah. The appropriate verses also describe that it was Allah Himself who first issued the command to face Jerusalem. That command is no where to be found in the Qur'an yet the entire Muslim community - unless you want to rewrite the history books as well - acted on it based solely on a directive from the Prophet (s) without any Qur'anic precedent. That proves the "extra-Qur'anic" authority of the Prophet (s) and the willingness of the earliest Muslims to accept that authority.

Iqbal, first off, lets agree not to fight like ninnies here. I respect your argument, and you will respect mine.

counter-argument:

Yes of course Allah himself issued the command to change the Qiblah. He was also the one to issue the command to face Jerusalem in the early years. He was ALSO the one to issue the command that you will be born on the day you were born and he ALSO issued the command that you were to be a boy, and not a girl.

God, by Islamic theology, issues commands for EVERYTHING, and nothing occurs without His approval. Thus, if God says that he "APPOINTED" a particular Qiblah, then this doesn't necessarily mean that there was a solid-material form of revelation handed down to the Rasul which was hid from all followers, nor does it mean that the Rasul had some telepathic communication with God in this regard.

If God wants be to build a fence around my house, and this is something he "appoints" or provides heavenly permission for to occur during Time, then he's not going to send me a letter "Dear PCG: A prowler is liable to attack your house, thus I Command you to put up a fence around your house". NO, of course not. He's going to somehow create a thought in my head. And I'll probably be watching Everybody Loves Raymond when the thought pops up into my mind, for all I know!

Thus, the decision to change the Qiblah may very well have been a decision made by the Rasul (which means God appointed it to happen). Rasul could easily, being a great tactician, have conceived the idea that the muslim ummah needs an independant icon. Jerusalem couldn't have lasted as a Qiblah, because inevitably we'd fight the Jewish folks over it for the rest of time, creating quite a ruckus. Obviously, it must have occurred to the Rasul back then that it would keep us rowdy muslims under control if we had our own icon, rather than share it with others!

My personal opinion. I may be wrong.

Corrupt Angel provided a GREAT explanation up there - using Quranic ayahs by the way. These ayah directly and CLEARLY contradict any extra-Quranic source of info coming to the Rasul. If you want to argue against what the Quran says, then go for it. You have been given the right to choose. So choose.

31

salaam to all,

[QUOTE]

by PCG:
God, by Islamic theology, issues commands for EVERYTHING, and nothing occurs without His approval.
Thus, if God says that he "APPOINTED" a particular Qiblah, then this doesn't necessarily mean that
there was a solid-material form of revelation handed down to the Rasul which was hid from all followers,
nor does it mean that the Rasul had some telepathic communication with God in this regard.
[/QUOTE]

filhaal: i completely agree with you PCG.
BTW as far as there was an actual command from GOD to take Jerusalem as a QIBLA, it was already given in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES!!

[QUOTE]

                               Originally posted by CurruptAngel: 
                               (1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45. Remember that when God says
                               that His book is complete, it means 100% complete.

[/QUOTE]

filhaal:
completeness means that the BOOK of GOD IS complete for OUR SALVATION!!it does not mean that it contains every detail how one should spend his/her life..............

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by filhaal: *

BTW as far as there was an actual command from GOD to take Jerusalem as a QIBLA, it was already given in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES!!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : salaams to all

Filhaal, kindly quote the verses from the other scriptures, failing which you prove yourself a???.

was salaam

Ibrahim

33

:rolleyes: many instances you have failed to prove things yourself, what does that make you???
calling other names, or replacing it with question marks isn’t exactly the way to have a healthy discussion…:nono:

34

hey, i like that icon where the face shakes his finger - nescio, please PM me telling me how to make it!

AGreed with nescio. Ibrahim, you could have asked your question in a more congenial manner.

35

When you have Clear purpose , you won’t have time for negativity.

36

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Hello Nescio , Like they say ** “birds of a feather will flock together!”** How true it is , seen by your responses and the support of the cronies it gets.

Now since you claim I have not proven things myself “many times”, which is surprising, for I tend to discuss matters ** only ** when there is “scriptural evidence for them “

I hope you will now show us where I have done that, failing which you have again proven yourself as a ????

[quote]
calling other names, or replacing it with question marks isn't exactly the way to have a healthy discussion......
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: whatever made you think there is a discussion intended between an ignorant who spreads his/her folly according to their whims and fancies and between one who expounds matters according to what has been conveyed in scriptures???

Now TAKE the advice of our LORD !

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget then after recollection** sit not thou in the company of the ungodly. **

69 On their account no responsibility falls on the righteous** but (their duty) is to remind them that they may (learn to) fear Allah. **

So you see, you do not even have the competency to understand I have a purpose for saying what I say and the way I say it.

Now be a good kiddo and go to the fun section or corner room or better still ask Gupshup to create and opinion forum where you can say whatever you like and get away with it!

So far as religion is concerned IF you do not back what you say without scripture or try to claim scriptures says such and such without evidence for your words (this goes for everyone including me) such words/posts/discussions amounts to NOTHING and you should be directed to get lost or spanked till you get it right before someone else gets annoyed enough to physically track your IP and computer and teach you a lesson you won’t forget

Just in case you find that unlikely , contemplate on How Allah (swt) ensures justice on the planet by means of others that you know not.

18: 74 Then they proceeded: ** until when they met a young man he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard-of) thing hast thou done!" **

75 He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"

SNIPPED

80 "As for the youth his parents were people of Faith and** we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).**

81 ** "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.**

In case it fails to get through to you and your cronies, let me repeat this again

Religion is based on Scripture (Instructions from the Creator) , not on anyone opinions , desires or whims and fancies

Now contemplate on it and after you have given prove for your above assertions see If you can help your crony Filhaal to quote the verses where it says the Qibla was changed to Jerusalem in the previous scriptures.

Good luck !

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** be humble to truth and follow it even If you hear it from a child.**

37

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibrahim: *
*... and you should be directed to get lost or spanked till you get it right before someone else gets annoyed enough to physically track your IP and computer and teach you a lesson you won’t forget **
[/quote]

Is this really necessary!? The only thing you are likely to achieve is that you'll reduce this thread to the level of farcical mud slinging, as has happened to a number of other threads that i've had occasion to read, where the important issues under discussion are lost in a sea of hysteria. And where does that get us?

Iqbal

38

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by filhaal: *
*... i think these ayats speak for themselves. GOD has sent us the BEST 'hadith' in the form of the QURAN and there is no room for other hadith!! **
[/QUOTE]

Actually, what you've presented is a logical fallacy. Just because something is the "best hadith" doesn't at all mean that other hadith are automatically invalid. The Qur'an itself points to other forms of hadith and there isn't any hint that those hadith constitute falsehood. For example, something that the Prophet (s) himself said to one of his wives is called "hadith" (66:3) and the dreams that Prophet Yusuf (as) was able to decipher are also called "hadith" (12:6, 101)

And Allah knows best.

Iqbal

39

This is a very interesting thread from a non-Muslim point of view. I enjoy these types of threads here where 2 points of view are discussed coherently and intelligently.

Looking at Islam objectively, without a pre-conceived opinion on Sunnah, I think both cases are laid out coherently and intelligently. I am particularly impressed with Corrupt Angel's comments in this thread. I think those are some strong arguements.

I think someone else here thought those arguements were strong as well. Sometimes when the validity of one's point of view is threatened, they lose a clear purpose , and spend their time spreading negativity.

40

[quote]
Is this really necessary!?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: AsSalaamu 'Alaikum wa-Rahmatullaahe wa-Barakaatuhu,

Dear Brother Iqbal, Yes I felt it was necessary FOR Nescio, since I have dealt with Nescio and know what he is capable of saying and quitting after saying them. The Problem here is the medium, which allows the spread of misinformation/slander which cannot be checked or corrected in the current format of anonymity . even when the mods delete some posts or ban some people these people simply change their IP's, handles to return as another just have fun/defame as they desire.

The purpose of “Religious” discussion is to provide CLEAR information but that fails its purpose when you have People like Nescio, PCG , PA or Filhaal, who tend to take advantage of this medium to provide their own concocted opinions and insist they are valid even when scriptures are presented to refute them.

There is nothing wrong ( not our responsibility) If one chose to reject scriptures and do what they like or disagrees with what is being conveyed in the scripture but when you have someone who claims he/she is following a particular scripture and without knowledge giving personal opinions on that scripture . It opens the road to apostasy for others to end up/get trapped in.

Now it is impossible for someone to sit around and monitor the activities of such people or redirect others every time such individuals make a post that contradicts scripture . The option for mankind had always been to bring such people to book or place them in asylums where they can cause less harm to society. This cannot be done in the virtual medium that we are using now, hence the options varies from what I am doing to others that may be needed to be done as we progress including legal action where possible when the laws are improved and strengthened.

Anyway. I am just giving you an idea based on the problem and the possible remedies at hand, since the current laws of bringing such people to justice is limited in this environment.

My option is always to allow some brothers and sisters to guide/advice these people in an Islamic manner when that fails I step in and engage them in a direct manner which would finally lead to a make or break situation exposing the errors and some unpleasant remarks.

[quote]
The only thing you are likely to achieve is that you'll reduce this thread to the level of farcical mud slinging, as has happened to a number of other threads that i've had occasion to read, where the important issues under discussion are lost in a sea of hysteria. And where does that get us? Iqbal
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I believe you are talking about rebellion, yes ! the more these people are cornered the more they will rebel, and yes the thread will lose its purpose , in-fact all threads ends up with varying diversions of some sorts but that is only a thread and the concern in my view is with regards to refuting the errors/misconceptions/distortions that has been conveyed in that thread by a group of people who are bent in spreading their misconceptions or distorting Islam. .

Now the issue should be “Prevention” and “redirection” of some people rather than allowing it all and later on searching for a cure to their ailment of uncontrolled speech that may lead others to apostasy. One can chose to be an apostate/unbeliever and that is his /her business but allowing one room to propagate falsehoods on a religion forum where the young and those lacking information may be present, without such people being admonished would be unsound .

In one way admonition is meant to SAVE that soul from being subjected to even greater punishments in the hereafter. Some will realize them and others will not but end of the day people need to be TOLD as to where they are heading, failing which we have not done our work or achieved our goals . Some may only need a hint others may need something stronger and still others the lose of limb or life. ( we can see this from how the judicial systems works and what sort of rehabilitations is achieved by mankind for mankind)

Anyway I am pleased that you have commented and Jazak Allahu khair for your comments and efforts.

Was salaam
Ibrahim