**If you have a comment to make, make it relevant!
Sentinel.**
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited May 26, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Shah Jahan
Here are two ayats that I posted in a previous thread from the Qur'aan which actually nullify your cliams concerning infallibility:
028.015 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"
028.016 He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
**
[/quote]
Brother Sholay,
Let's take one thing at a time. You seem to be in a haste to jump on the "prophets were fallible" band wagon.
Let's take your first example one section at a time:
[Shakir 28:14] And when he attained his maturity and became full grown, We granted him wisdom and knowledge; and thus do We reward those who do good (to others).
**In this ayat, Hukm means authority and prophethood.
Istawa refers to the state of perfect equity which is an essential quality or attribute for being appointed as the prophet of Allah. It is a state of perfect balance for viewing both the aspects of creation-manifest and hidden.**
[Shakir 28:15] And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Shaitan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 28:15]
**One day, Musa found an Egyptian cook of Firawn beating a poor helpless Jew who sought Musa's help. Musa asked the Egyptian to spare the poor Jew but he did not cease beating him whereupon Musa gave a blow to make him stay away from the Jew but the Egyptian fell dead.
Faghfir-li here means "protect me".**
[Shakir 28:16] He said: My Lord! surely I have done harm to myself, so do Thou protect me. So He protected him; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
Musa had killed the offender in an effort to help the oppressed Jew, but fearing that Egyptians would retaliate for the death of a fellow Egyptian, Musa prayed to Allah to keep his deed hidden from the men of Firawn.
[Shakir 28:17] He said: My Lord! because Thou hast bestowed a favor on me, I shall never be a backer of the guilty.
[Shakir 28:18] And he was in the city, fearing, awaiting, when lo! he who had asked his assistance the day before was crying out to him for aid. Musa said to him: You are most surely one erring manifestly.
**These TWO EVENTS took place before Musa was allowed by Allah to declare war against the infidels. This stage is called taqiyyah "hiding the faith" but self defence is not prohibited. Please consult our Sahih books for relevant hadiths on this issue.
Thus, in the first quarrel Musa had put aside taqiyyah and killed the infidel. That action encouraged his companion to quarrel with another offender. Musa blamed him for being hot tempered and not able to observe taqiyyah, which compelled Musa to take his side. But legally there was nothing against Musa on both occasions.
The infidels of Makka expected a compromising attitude from the Holy Prophet, therefore they approached Abu Talib to ask the Holy Prophet not to abuse their gods and be confined to his own way of worship.**
[Shakir 28:19] So when he desired to seize him who was an enemy to them both, he said: O Musa! do you intend to kill me as you killed a person yesterday? You desire nothing but that you should be a tyrant in the land, and you do not desire to be of those who act aright.
[Shakir 28:20] And a man came running from the remotest part of the city. He said: O Musa! surely the chiefs are consulting together to slay you, therefore depart (at once); surely I am of those who wish well to you.
Among the people of Firawn, Hazkil was the believer in Allah but kept his faith hidden in order to help Musa (see Mumin: 18), and so was Abu Talib who protected the cause of Islam and the Holy Prophet against the strong and powerful non-believers of Makka.
Don't judge an action of a prophet (as) without looking at the overall picture. That is why the holy prophet (pbuh) equated the holy qur'an to his weighty ahl-bait, the knowledge holders of the qur'an.
I will get to the rest of your issues shortly.
w'salam
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 26, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 26, 2002).]
Now Brother Sholay;
Let's look at the following quranic verses:
**[Shakir 26:10] And when your Lord called out to Musa, saying: Go to the unjust people,
[Shakir 26:11] The people of Firon: Will they not guard (against evil)?
[Shakir 26:12] He said: O my Lord! surely I fear that they will reject me;
[Shakir 26:13] And by breast straitens, and my tongue is not eloquent, therefore send Thou to Haroun (to help me);
[Shakir 26:14] And they have a crime against me, therefore I fear that they may slay me.**
In many instances the sin of the prophets mentioned in Quran is the act they have committed which is considered violation by the tyrants of their time and NOT by Allah.
It means that the governor considered such prophet is GUILTY of a specific act. This does NOT mean that they are guilty before Allah. The case of Prophet Moses killing a non-believer in defense of one of his Shia (followers) falls into this category.
Prophet Moses did what he was supposed to do, that is helping the oppressed believer against the oppressor. Although he did not intend to kill the oppressor, it happened during that defense. It was a Satan's plan to make the situation more difficult for Moses (AS). By that unplanned murder, life was made harder for Moses (AS) since he had to stay away from Egypt, but this does not mean that he sinned. Sometimes defending the truth may cause trouble but not sin. Despite all such troubles, Allah finally granted Moses (AS) victory over the unbelievers.
ws
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 26, 2002).]
As to your verses regarding prophet Yunus (as), let's look at them as well:
[Shakir 21:86] And We caused them to enter into Our mercy, surely they were of the good ones.
[Shakir 21:87] And Yunus, when he went away in wrath, so he thought that We would not straiten him, so he called out among afflictions: There is no god but Thou, glory be to Thee; surely I am of those who make themselves to suffer loss.
**Dhun-nun, "the man of the fish", is the title of prophet Yunus.
The cause of anger Yunus felt was the disobedience of his people who did not respond to his preaching, so Allah tested him by putting him in the belly of a huge fish.
When he was engulfed with the darkness of the night, the sea and the belly of the fish, he cried to his Lord and accepted the fact that he should have not gone away in anger breaking off from his people, though they refused to believe in him and Allah.
All the prophets of Allah were aware of the fact that every human being is likely to make mistakes and it is Allah alone who can save him from wrong-doing, so every one of them always prayed to Allah that he might keep himself away from mistakes.
The spiritual force of the prayer- "There is no god but Thou. Glory be to Thee. Verily I have been of the wrong-doers"-has been confirmed by the Holy Prophet.
Verse 88 is the sure effect of the prayer.**
[Shakir 21:88] So We responded to him and delivered him from the grief and thus do We deliver the believers.
You have to understand that all the prophets (pbuht) were expected to meet a level of righteousness that far exceeds anything which we ordinary human beings have to achieve or could hope to achieve.
As such, the prophets (pbut) would be tested or warned by Allah (swt) so that they maintained their course of infallibility.
However, such instructions or tests that Allah (swt) gives his prophets (pbuh) ARE NOT sins that are committed by them.
Hazrat Yunus' anger was based on his people's rejection of Allah's (swt) message. This is not a sin but in Allah's (swt) Sight, it was something that the prophet (pbuh) was to be tested on.
In the verse
[Shakir 21:87] And Yunus, when he went away in wrath, so he thought that We would not straiten him
means that the prophet (as) thought that he would not be warned by Allah (swt) for this action. However, he was - due to the high standards that prophets are to maintain.
Again, his action was not a sin for he glorified Allah's (swt) Name and got angry for His sake.
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 26, 2002).]
[quote]
That is why the holy prophet (pbuh) equated the holy qur'an to his weighty ahl-bait, the knowledge holders of the qur'an.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Salaams to all
Gandalf dear, you keep making a mockery of yourself ! But that is what deceivers (taqiyah practitioners) will end up doing, they will deceive themselves as well as others. It is a pity but let me remind you as to what Allah (swt) had revealed , concerning liars and their punishment and fate in this planet itself.
So read!
9: 77 ** So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts (to last) till the day whereon they shall meet Him:** because they broke their covenant with Allah** and because they lied (again and again). **
78 Know they not that Allah doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels and that Allah knoweth well all things unseen?
79 ** Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor and throw ridicule on them Allah will throw back their ridicule on them:** and they shall have a grievous penalty.
80 ** Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness Allah will not forgive them: ** because they have rejected Allah and His apostle; and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious.
Ibrahim says : Hence you alone will have to bear the burden when you resort to lying in order to deceive others and the punishment for that is Allah(swt ) will put hypocrisy into your heart and what Allah(swt) puts none can remove.
** Consider this a brotherly advise for you, since you have slandered the people whom Allah(swt) chose for the Prophet (pbuh) as well as whom the Prophet (pbuh) Loved dearly.** Having said that
Lets venture into you misconceptions a bit.
First you are under the impression that the Qur’an is equal to the ahl-bait ( which is silly) yet you seem to have no fear in accusing and slandering the wives and close companions and relatives of the Prophet (pbuh)
Second you seem to believe Prophets committed sins, which was not a sin in Allah (swt) sight, that is another other silly comment.
sins are sins immaterial of who commits them but Allah (swt) forgives sins as to whom he pleases , so what ever ** MISTAKES, not sins** the chosen prophets made were forgiven by Allah(swt) ** because they excelled in doing their duty , and were QUICK to seek for forgiveness and repented for their actions and were only humans and subject to making errors in their trials. The tials the Prophets endured were far much greater in scope than others.
Lets Read!
3: 26 Say: "O Allah! Lord of Power (and Rule) ** thou givest Power to whom Thou pleasest and Thou strippest off power from whom Thou pleasest thou enduest with honor whom thou pleasest and thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest; ** in Thy hand is all Good. Verily over all things thou hast power.
So your shia misconception and claim that prophets are infallible is absurd and your argument crashes as usual because the prophets begged Allah (swt) for forgiveness and repented for their actions without fail.
** Which is the condition and stipulation that is given to all of mankind. ( repent and redirect when knowing that one has sinned or made a mistake) Immaterial of their lineage **
As usual I have to now to teach you, what infallible means,
infallible
1 :** incapable of error : UNERRING **
2 : ** not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint ** : CERTAIN
3 : ** incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals**
_
©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.
Ibrahim says: So far as the revelation of the Qur’an is concerned , the Prophet is merely a conduit (meaning he is only forwarding what he hears) as such he is infallible in those circumstances but when it comes to his personal actions he is merely a human being and liable to make mistakes.
Whereas the shia assertion and position is that, because the Prophet (pbuh) had been purified (using 33:33 as their basis), He will NEVER make any mistakes and everyone who are his lineage becomes infallible for ever, especially their imams ( that is absurd,) who are minting money by collecting the zakats and managing it for themselves as well as approving prostitution and other actions which are against the Qur’an.
How do we prove this?
We simply look at 33:33 and note that this surah was the chronologically recorded as the 90th Surah to be revealed in Medina .
Thus if we follow the shia notions, after the revelation of this Surah (33:33), the Prophet(pbuh) and his family (ahl bait) will not be making any personal mistakes and have become angels so to speak.
That was not the case.
In Surah 66:1, which is considered the 107th Surah in chronological records, we note that the Prophet and his wives are admonished for their actions.
Let us read what transpired in this instance
66:1 ** O Prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? ** Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
3 Allah has already ordained for you (O men) the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom
Commentary by Yuosf Ali:-
5529 The Prophet's household was not like other households. The Consorts of Purity were expected to hold a higher standard in behaviour and reticence than ordinary women, as they had higher work to perform. See n. 3706 to xxxiii. 28. But they were human beings after all, and were subject to the weaknesses of their sex, and they sometimes failed. The commentators usually cite the following incident in connection with the revelation of these verses. It is narrated from 'Aisha, the wife of the holy Prophet (peace be on him) by Bukhari, Muslim, Nasai. Abu Dawud and others that ** the holy Prophet usually visited all his wives daily after 'Asr Prayer. Once it so happened that he stayed longer than usual at the quarters of Zainab bint Jahsh, for she had received from somewhere some honey which the holy Prophet liked very much. "At this", says 'Aisha, "I felt jealous, and Hafsa, Sawda, Safiya, and I agreed among ourselves that when he visits us each of us would tell him that a peculiar odour came from his mouth as a result of what he had eaten, for we knew that he was particularly sensitive to offensive smells". So when his wives hinted at it, he vowed that he would never again use honey. Thereupon these verses were revealed reminding him that he should not declare to himself unlawful that which Allah had made lawful to him. ** The important point to bear in mind is that he was at once rectified by revelation, which reinforces the fact that the prophets are always under divine protection, and even the slightest lapse on their part is never left uncorrected. (66.1)
5530 The tender words of admonition addressed to the Consorts in 33: 28-34 explain the situation far better than any comments can express. If the holy Prophet had been a mere husband in the ordinary sense of the term, he could not have held the balance even between his private feelings and his public duties. But he was not an ordinary husband, and he abandoned his renunciation on his realisation of the higher duties with which he was charged, and which required conciliation with firmness. (66.1)
Thus clearly establishing the fact that by saying the family was purified will mean they became totally infallible is a very erroneous concept created by the shias to market shi’ism and has nothing to do with Islam.
In addition to this Allah (swt) had revealed
24: 21 ** O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps:** if any will follow the footsteps of Satan he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: ** and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you not one of you would ever have been pure: but Allah doth purify whom He pleases:** and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
Ibrahim says: thus it is CLEAR that Allah (swt) intends purification for all whom He pleases and those who will obey Him and keep away from evil, not just the ahl bait as is the case of the shia misconceptions.
So Gandalf dear, very sorry to tell you that your bubble has burst again
BTW can you tell me which imam approved mutah and promote it in shi’ism ??? , if indeed you believe your imams are infallible, why did they approve prostitution when it was forbidden by the Prophet (pbuh) as well as Ali (ra) ?
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** who can protest and does not is an accomplice in the act **
Ibrahim;
Let me knock down your accusation that the holy prophet (pbuh) "sinned" or was "fallible" by verse 66:1 that you quoted.
It is good that you quoted this verse since it shows from the horse's mouth how certain wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) lied against the holy prophet (pbuh) and gave him such distress that he (pbuh) was displeased by their obnoxtious behavior.
The prophets of Allah (swt) all knew that they were humans and as such, constantly prayed to Allah (swt) to ensure that their actions were infallible and that they were prevented from making any mistakes.
As such, after verse 66:1 was revealed, verse 66:2 says:
[Shakir 66:2] Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.
This verse is a recommendation to the holy prophet (pbuh) that he could dissolve such an oath and on him (pbuh) there would be no blame.
To make a vow to do a thing which one has the option to do or not to do is permissible in Islam if there is good in it. A husband can accommodate his wife's legitimate desires to a reasonable extent.
The important thing to understand here is that:
1) The holy prophet (pbuh) did not prohibit anyone from anything - it was a vow on himself. As such, he did not commit any mistake against the Laws of Allah (swt).
2) Verse 66:2 was a recommendation from Allah (swt) that such vows could be broken and would Not be a sin
3) Since the holy prophet (pbuh) was in CONSTANT protection from Allah (swt), ayat 66:2 was revealed to protect the prophet (pbuh) and maintain his exemplary character.
Due to Umm Momineen Aisha's and Hafsa's insolent behavior, Allah (swt) revealed ayat 66:5, describing their character and threatening them with a divorce:
[Pickthal 66:5] It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids.
So now, the ayats of prophet Musa (as), Yunus (as), and the holy prophet (pbuh) should clearly show that what you intend as their explanation is in err.
The prophets (pbut) of Allah (swt) were constantly protected by Allah (swt) and were infallible.
w'salam
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
Ibrahim; Let me knock down your accusation that the holy prophet (pbuh) "sinned" or was "fallible" by verse 66:1 that you quoted.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Gandalf dear, you are not knocking down anything but only making a mockery of yourself.
I wrote CLEARLY, that Prophets cannot err when it comes to scriptures and Islamic practices, for they are protected by angels (try reading my post again on this thread, if you have yet to notice what I am saying)
Second Prophets do not sin but do make mistakes (which are corrected by the Angels or through revelations, such that the disciples and followers will be sure that they are following the correct path and not something conjured by the prophet out of his own )
[quote]
It is good that you quoted this verse since it shows from the horse's mouth how certain wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) ** lied ** against the holy prophet (pbuh) and gave him such distress that he (pbuh) was displeased by their ** obnoxtious behavior** .
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Gandalf! Do you ever understand English? They (wives were of two groups) played a prank on the Prophet (pbuh) , which caused him to forbid honey for himself and this matter got out and would have spread , such that Allah (swt) corrected this mistake through revelation , such that we will be sure that the Prophet (pbuh) had NEVER erred in form at any time, when it comes to imparting Islam .so get help, you seem to need it a lot.
[quote]
The important thing to understand here is that:
1) The holy prophet (pbuh) did not prohibit anyone from anything - it was a vow on himself. As such, he did not commit any mistake against the Laws of Allah (swt).
[/quote]
Ibrahim say Stop deluding yourself! When Allah (swt ) tells the Prophet (pbuh) not to forbid what was not forbidden , that is admonishment.
[quote]
Due to Umm Momineen Aisha's and Hafsa's insolent behavior, Allah (swt) revealed ayat 66:5, describing their character and threatening them with a divorce:
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Man you are THICK, what happened is that this admonishment by Allah (swt) in the form of revelation brought great sorrow to the Prophet (pbuh) even though to us it is a minor mistake, so much so he kept apart from all his wives as such 66:5 admonished the wives too
** BTW, No one was divorced and my point stands that 33:33 did not mean The Prophet (pbuh) and his family became angels after that revelation but were human beings still capable of making human errors in their personal life. And when it touched on Islam, they were corrected immediately. **
[quote]
The prophets (pbut) of Allah (swt) were constantly protected by Allah (swt) and were infallible.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Gandalf dear The prophets are infallible where revelations and the life they are to impart ( teachings) to their followers are concerned, this was CLEARLY stressed earlier even by Brother Eemo in this very thread. (DID YOU NOT READ WHAT INFALLIBLE MEANS according to dictionary definition)** the problem is the shia take this to include Ali (ra) and their selected imams and the current immamhood to some extent, which is folly. **
Hence the shia are deceiving themselves when they use 33:33 to try and convince people their previous and current imams are infallible
Now I asked you are question, will have the courage to answer or you going to keep evading it??
I repeat!
** can you tell me which imam approved mutah and promote it in shi'ism ??? , if indeed you believe your imams are infallible, why did they approve prostitution when it was forbidden by Allah (swt), the Prophet (pbuh) as well as Ali (ra) ?**
while you are at it, also tell us why your Qur'an or translation is hidden by your 12th infallible imam???
was salaam
Ibrahim
b Sleep in Peace , Allah (swt) is AWAKE! **
Ibrahim;
Any "mistakes" that prophets (pbut) make is between Allah (swt) and themselves. Since they are constantly under divine protection, they are infallible to us mere ordinary humans.
As such, as long as you understand that, I have no qualms with you - though the rude words that you use is nothing more than your demeaning character, for which I see you have no control over.
Nevertheless, unless you accept everything that Allah (swt) and his Messenger give to you, you have not brought forth complete belief.
The holy quran states:
**[Shakir 59:7] And whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):
[Shakir 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
[Shakir 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed**
These verses are a direct order from Allah (swt) to accept and reject WHATEVER the holy prophet (pbuh) gives a believer.
As such, to mankind, the holy prophet (pbuh) and all prophets (pbuh) are infallible, as you cannot accept everything given from a prophet (pbuh) making mistakes.
Any so called "mistakes" by prophets (pbuh) is corrected by the Almighty's (swt) revelations, and as such are of no concern to us, since to us all the the prophet (pbuh) did / taught / instruct were infallible commands.
Thus Musa (as), Yunus (as), and all other prophets (pbut) were infallible.
As for your other questions, I have learnt that it is not necessary to respond to a dog's bark. As such, your barking will be left unheard.
wsa'am
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 28, 2002).]
Ibrahim;
Verse 66:5 was an admonishment to the wives of the prophet (pbuh) on another issue - i.e their back-biting behind the prophet's (pbuh) back.
This ayat is not referring to the honey incident, though there is a link - the suspect characters of certain wives of the prophet (pbuh).
Keep that clear.
The ahl-bait were humans and Allah's (swt) guide to the Ummah. They consisted of people of the highest righteousness and being guides, they were like prophets infallible and protected by Allah (swt).
If you believe them as guides, we can discuss if they could be infallible.
If you don't consider them as guides, then to talk of the infallibility becomes useless.
ws
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
As for your other questions, I have learnt that it is not necessary to respond ** to a dog's bark.** As such, ** your barking ** will be left unheard.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: : Salaams to all.
Gandalf, you prove yourself a shia all the time. That is why I cannot consider you a Muslim.
** Here you practically call me dog because you know your shia inventions are false and you are a deceiver. **
Now read as to where you belong in Islam.
49: 11 ** O ye who believe!** let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames:** ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (Indeed) doing wrong**
Ibrahim says: As I have been saying again and again , you have been lying in this forum and on account of such behaviors which you have been involved in all the time, Allah (sw) had put hypocrisy into your heart to last till judgment day. I am not responsible for your evil actions I merely prove that you are evil by engaging you in this forum.
Read!
9: 77 ** So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts (to last)** till the day whereon they shall meet Him: because they broke their covenant with Allah and ** because they lied (again and again).**
78 Know they not that Allah doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels and that Allah knoweth well all things unseen?
79 ** Those who slander such of the believers ** as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor and throw ridicule on them Allah will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty.
80 Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness ** Allah will not forgive them: ** because they have rejected Allah and His apostle; and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious.
Ibrahim says: So now I am a dog, because I question your follies and if I question you further you will spew out your vomit ** but nothing compares to the slanderous words you have said against the companions and the wives of the Prophet (pbuh), ( read 9:79 above) I truly pity you , I truly feel sorry for that all you good works will be taken away by others who you have slandered.
** May Allah (swt) protect the Muslims from such an evil group (shia) and their deceptive and misguided teachings which is the enemy within .**
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** You cannot break the laws of nature. You can only break yourself against them **
When there is nothing better to say, write gibberish.
Such are the ways of Ibrahim of GupShup
Ibrahim says: Salaams to all
well here is more evidence about your infallible imams and their follies
work on it, they are infallible and you have to believe in it!
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited May 29, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
**When there is nothing better to say, write gibberish.
Such are the ways of Ibrahim of GupShup**
[/quote]
Watch your language Gandalf. As a Shia , you must be a professional in cursing.
But remember that ** you are NOT in your Imambara, ** where the person with the foulest langauge gets the loudest applause.
Do not bark against our Muslims brothers/sisters here. It may be appreciated in your Imambara, but not here.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
** Watch your language Gandalf. As a Shia , you must be a professional in cursing.
But remember that ** you are NOT in your Imambara, ** where the person with the foulest langauge gets the loudest applause.
Do not bark against our Muslims brothers/sisters here. It may be appreciated in your Imambara, but not here.
**
[/quote]
And he has a watch dog too.
Ibrahim;
Stick to the topic of infallibility instead of rammering on about shite beliefs.
Their beliefs do not relate to me nor does accusing them help you from looking foolish.
And in proving your points, it does no good to pick and chose what you like to portray from websites of your own choosing.
As on several previous occassions, this advice will not be heeded by you as well.
Talking to you is like talking to a dog barking at his own reflection.
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
And he has a watch dog too.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; salaams to all
Gandalf, it does not take much to understand that you have a vile mouth and definitively not a Muslim and a true Shia, since it is so easy for you to call Muslims dogs and curse the people Allah (swt) blessed.
Now if you are under the impression that I am going to come down to your level, sorry , Muslims know better.
Read what has been revealed to Muslims and why they behave the way they do
5: 28 "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me to slay me it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah the Cherisher of the worlds.
29 ** "For me I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire and that is the reward of those who do wrong.**
[quote]
Stick to the topic of infallibility instead of rammering on about shite beliefs.{/quote]
Ibrahim say : hello… day dreaming or something? I am talking about your infallible imams the very ones you are calling rightly guided and their actions , has gone against Islam
That is why I asked you , who approved mutah, which seems to be too difficult for you to answer, although you keep spinning around and around on the same subject , getting no where.
Now work on this …..
** I am asking you to tell us why your infallible imams sanctioned prostitution (temporary marriage/mutah) which was practiced by the pagans and Arabs before Islam was established fully and subsequently forbidden by Allah (swt) his Rasool (pbuh) and even Ali (ra) were your infallible imams going against the Qur'an or did they have new revelation from Allah (swt) that abrogated the Qur'an??? (* nauzubillah)**
[quote]
Their beliefs do not relate to me nor does accusing them help you from looking foolish.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: O please! Not that lies about you being a Muslim again,** sorry you are a shia and you have made that Clear in your words and actions, when you slandered the wives of the Prophet (pbuh)** . Now my post on the shia belief that the Qur'an is fabricated is with regard to the infallibility claim of shia imams, so get a life, THINK and address the issue, do not try to evade them by claiming it is not related.
[quote]
And in proving your points, it does no good to pick and chose what you like to portray from websites of your own choosing.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: are you not the silly shia who claimed that my hadiths are unauthentic and yours are authentic which comes from the same books ?? Are you not the Shia who splices verses from the Qur'an to suit your purpose. So please don't try to spin, when you have been knocked down every time you try.
[quote]
Talking to you is like talking to a dog barking at his own reflection./QUOTE
Ibrahim says : I guess you must have much experience in talking to dogs which btw is done by the ignorant and being a shia, you surely qualify amply for such behavior.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** If clouds will remain in your mind tears will fall from the eyes **
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
**
And he has a watch dog too.
Talking to you is like talking to a dog barking at his own reflection.**
[/quote]
Gandalf, ** Pay Attention !!! **
As I said earlier, ** you are NOT in your Imambara. **
LOL
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
Ibrahim and Khoon - the moral standard bearers.
Those who call ppl with other schools of thought as kafirs and insult their places of worship and their beliefs now stand accusing others of bad-mouthing them.
Both of you are a joke onto yourselves.
Go cry taqiyah this and shia that to your fellow brain-washed companions.
This thread has served its purpose and your arguments as usual have been proven to be futile.
Enough said on this matter.
Any further conversation with the two of you can lead one to fall to the low levels of behavior and speech that you both are so accustomed to.
No use holding discussions with a couple of desperate mullahs whose only talent is cutting & pasting from hate sites.
Let’s just leave it at that.
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
Let's just leave it at that.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Salaams to all
Gandalf! Which means you will not and NEVER be able to answer my question that is related to this topic and your claim that your imams are infallible!
I repeat my question for you again
** I am asking you to tell us why your infallible imams sanctioned prostitution (temporary marriage/mutah) which was practiced by the pagans and Arabs before Islam was established fully and subsequently forbidden by Allah (swt) his Rasool (pbuh) and even Ali (ra) were your infallible imams
going against the Qur'an or did they have new revelation from Allah (swt) that abrogated the Qur'an??? (* nauzubillah) **
Ibrahim says: so stop trying to laugh your way out of this, after calling Muslims dogs and slandering the people Allah (swt) blessed in the Qur’an
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** An idle mind is the devils workshop
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
*The Holy Imam
*
[/quote]
In my humble opinion, it seems quite sacrilegious to bestow the word "holy" upon any human being besides the Prophets. What is Islaam's perspective on this?
I've been muddling thru this thread. Perhaps, each of u guys are using different definitions for Fallible, it seems that some people mean (1)Capable of making an error, while others are using (2) Tending or likely of being erroneous.
In my understanding, all Prophets were human beings thus capable of making an error hence fallible **but then they were of fine moral character and among the best of human beings that they **would not be tending or likely of being erroneous therefore infallible Perhaps u guys should agree on the definition.
I personally believe that the Prophets were infallible such that they were moral and upright people with taqwa that they never were allured by the worldly desires and stayed away from sinning. But that doesn't mean that they were made with extraordinary spiritual material that prevented them from erring. They were just humans, just as capible of making any mistakes or errors.
*Yaa Hayyu yaa Qayyoomu bi-rahmatika astagheethu aslih lee sha'nee kullahu wa laa takilnee ilaa nafsee tarfata 'ainin *