So u give her two choices:
- Become a prostitute
- Become a muslim
huh?
What if muslim women r captured by non-muslim forces? how do u want them to be treated? the same way?
The words used were from Yusufuali’s translation.
Welcome to the discussion Mr. Abdulmalick.. show some respect and u’ll get some back. I’m not too patient with juveniles thinking they’ve hit the jackpot in Islam bashing by reading Ali Sena and other morons.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Good.. first off drop the brackets.. they are put in by the translator.. not the word of God.
the part of the verse now reads:
“We are aware of what we enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hand possesses”
Your turn to find out what was enjoined on the believers in general.
When you discuss religion, discuss it’s scripture, not the followers.
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 01, 2002).]
PA
The whole SUBMITTERS translation of the quran is based upon "OVERACTIVE IMAGINATION"
Obviously - the comments did not stand very well with you and thus your attack. Too Bad!
You have distorted the ayath and the word in bracket that you refer to or:
* 'What the right hand possesses'* MEANS concubines or sex-slaves.
Are you, now, saying that it means something else, maybe, as per the Submitters' translation?
IF I cannot quote the sahabas and the prophet in how they implemented this verse of quran then who should I quote?
The fiction of the Submitters!
NO ahl as sunnah SCHOLARS dispute this position re: slaves - stated above.
The SUBMITTERS should be careful in attempting to re-CRAFT Islamic history in the opinion of their own SHORT-term tenure as a new sect.
[quote]
You have distorted the ayath and the word in bracket that you refer to or:
* 'What the right hand possesses'* MEANS concubines or sex-slaves.
[/quote]
Yes and I have to take your word for that .. right?? Get a grip on Qur'anic arabic or move along and don't participate in discussions above your intellectual capabilities.
btw I did't know Yusufali's translation was a 'Submitters' translation.
[quote]
IF I cannot quote the sahabas and the prophet in how they implemented this verse of quran then who should I quote?
[/quote]
How about the Qur'an itself for a change, without modifications and bracketed interpretations??
Pakistani Abroad,
Two Questions:
- what does the "'What the right hand possesses' " mean?
it has been used in several places in Quran, not just one verse?
- What has been its past interpretaions?
http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/3350.jpg
“Only for Allah and to gain His pleasure”
“You are either slave to what made man or u are slave to what man made”
Ma malakat aymanukum or literally translated “what your right hand possesses” has many possible meanings.. EXCEPT slave or concubine (which has no place in the Qur’an btw)
“right hand” denotes “financially dependent”
These people are NOT war captives.
Qur’an has used a word for war-captives:
[Shakir 76:8] And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive ((aseera))
[Shakir 33:26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive (tasiroona) another part.
PakistaniAbroad: I guess it’s clear enough that “Ma Malakat Aymanukum” are not war captives or war booty (no pun intended) as some would like to call it.
In 33:50 Allah reminds believers at large what had been enjoined on them regarding the Ma Malakat aymanukum. Since the critics are quick to nit pick but slow at honest research to find answers, here’s the relevant portion of the verse Allah is talking about:
[Shakir 4:25] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly,…
PakistaniAbroad: Sorry folks.. no concubines, no slaves.. just the foundations of a just social structure which caters for people who are financially dependent on you.
However to answer the second part of the question, follow the hadith based Islam and you’d be well on your way to free booty calls
Pakistan Abroad
Now u have changed the interpretation of Quran to ur liking to humanize it. Goof intentions, but u can not do that without belying all other interpretaors in the past and quite large ppl now who stand by these “female slaves” part.
In [Shakir 4:25], Allah is talking about marriage. Marriage to non-muslim sex slave was considered bad in Arab culture because most of these female sex slaves were from low caste. people used to just have sex with them, and any children from them do not enjoy the “good” family name of the master. They were also discriminated against the inheritance. So marriage was always discouraged and considered a bad thing. But there is no saying in Quran against having sex with them.
Yes, they were meant as female slaves, who were either captured thru war or have been bought from someone ealse. Salvery was a norm in those days, and u should be not ashamed of denying it. Check out another translation of it in
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae033.htm
The truth is that whereever in Quran, “lawful females in context of sex” were discussed, this phrase was used, and this encompasses all the women under ur financial control. They could come from war (as booty) or u could have bought them. But female sex slavery was common, and not denounced in Quran in any way.
The verses u mention where “captives” r used, r for male and female context. They r not in “relationship” context.
u said "However to answer the second part of the question, follow the hadith based Islam and you’d be well on your way to free booty calls "
What do u mean by that? Does Hadith OKays female slavery and not Quran? explain it, plz.
PS: Is it not a fact that a married non-muslim princess was caught in a war, and before she could be handed over to any ashaba, someone suggested that the woman of her position should go to Muhammed. Muhammed took her in his possession, converted her, and then married her.
[quote]
Originally posted by WhoAmI:
[quote]
Now u have changed the interpretation of Quran to ur liking to humanize it.
[/quote]
No baseless allegations.. proof.. what's wrong with my interpretations.. arguments. not armchair criticism. ok?
[quote]
but u can not do that without belying all other interpretaors in the past and quite large ppl now who stand by these "female slaves" part.
[/quote]
So I disagree with someone elses interpretation ..I wonder why that is such a big deal??
[quote]
But there is no saying in Quran against having sex with them.
[/quote]
ok.. show me where it's encouraged.
[quote]
But female sex slavery was common, and not denounced in Quran in any way.
[/quote]
isn't that an assumption based on extra qur'anic historical sources?? why should we even entertain that argument. You bring forth Qur'anic verses you deem offensive in terms of slavery and let's discuss them.
[quote]
The verses u mention where "captives" r used, r for male and female context. They r not in "relationship" context.
[/quote]
It was to establish the fact that there is already a word in the Qur'an for that kind of usage and had Allah meant to talk about war captives He could very well have used that.
Ma Malakat Aymanukum are not always obtained via slavery.. You would want to thrust that interpretation but isn't it a fact that many women converted or accepted the message on their own and separated from their idolator husbands.
These women were then given financial protection with the current community of Muslims. Hence they became financially dependent to them.
[quote]
What do u mean by that? Does Hadith OKays female slavery and not Quran? explain it, plz.
[/quote]
The majority of history you so gladly accept is from the same sources. The author of one of these books Bukhari himself had a slave trade and kept slave girls. I wouldn't hope for anything better coming from his pen.
[quote]
PS: Is it not a fact that a married non-muslim princess was caught in a war, and before she could be handed over to any ashaba, someone suggested that the woman of her position should go to Muhammed. Muhammed took her in his possession, converted her, and then married her.
[/quote]
Once again my friend.. cheesy stories in the hadith books are not my forte.. try other guppies who take those blashemies for religion.
Ponder deeply and they it becomes crystal clear that they were created AFTER reading qur'anic verses. Pick a verse.. play around with it's subject and then create a hadith that revolves around it's purpose of revelation hence trivializing a divine timeless message to 9th century everyday drivel.
Woe to those who fabricated such lies against an honorable Prophet.
Pakistani Abroad,
Ok, i got ur point.
Now some questions:
What happened to non-mulsim females were made captives after war?
female slavery is taken for granted and as a norm in Quran. And bear in mind that I am not criticising Quran. I am just saying that it was a norm in those days. But had it been a sin in God's eyes, it would have been explicitly denied to muslims at that time. But it was not. There is no encouragement per se, but no denial of slavery either.
Do u deny that wealthy muslims did not have slaves (female and male) in that period?
Do u deny that female slaves were used as sex partners?
[quote]
Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
** I'm not sure. But the Nizam of Hyderabad freed my family from slavery when we became muslims in the 18th century.**
[/quote]
MS: I hope you do not consider this prying:
Why was your family enslaved? And what were they before they became Muslims?
PA
WHY it is such a big problem?
BECAUSE your translation of the ayath [33:50]and the phrase:
"the right hand posesesses"
depicts that Slavery in Islam was an innocent & innocous chapter when it, in fact, has played a big part in Islam.
The submitters' translation of the phrase:
"the right hand possesses" means - 'other possessions'.
OKAY - slaves & concubines are "other possessions."
And, Slavery was/is not haram in Islam. It was integral part of mankind history and still is for islam because - the ayath 33:50 still exists and similar other ayaths that ENCOURAGES sex with the slaves. Slavery and the verse re: Slavery are not abrogated. It has just become socially unacceptable and a CRIME.
There are hadeeths (Sahih) that discusses captures of slaves;
review any sharia'h on the matter of Slaves and you will find copious data on the subject matter.
[This message has been edited by Adbulmalick (edited May 01, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Adbulmalick:
BECAUSE your translation of the ayath [33:50]and the phrase: "the right hand posesesses" depicts that Slavery in Islam was an innocent & innocous chapter when it, in fact, has played a big part in Islam.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : greetings of peace to one and all .
Dear Brethren.
** Lack of knowledge indeed leads mankind to fumble and finally end up concluding matters beyond their knowledge.** Immaterial of what knowledge can be conveyed to one, it would fall on deaf ears due to preset boundary markers that had been self established by themselves and also when Allah (swt) had sealed their hearts and minds due to their arrogance.
The Qur’an conveys :
2: 15 Allah will throw back their mockery on them ** and give them rope in their trespasses;** so they will wander like blind ones (to and fro).
16 ** These are they who have bartered guidance for error: but their traffic is profitless and they have lost true direction.**
17 Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness so they could not see.
18 ** Deaf dumb and blind they will not return (to the path).**
Ibrahim says: hence explanations can be useless for some, whereas for believers they need no explanation, as they have been given insight on matters which may not be plane to see for others.
Now coming to this subject on slaves and possessions of the right hand ( human beings included) and as to why they have been mentioned in the Qur’an.
Let us first understand about slaves/possessions of the right hand and what it meant at that time frame and prior to that.. In order to understand this one needs knowledge of the past and such knowledge can only be found in scriptures kept by others prior to the revelations of the Qur’an.
Thus let us refer to the scrolls of prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) ** oops! I mean what remains of it, albeit in its corrupted form.**
The middle east people were the original people who had received the message from Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) corrupted to Brahma in Hinduism ( just like Prophet Eesa (pbuh) has been corrupted to Jesus in Christianity) . Yet although all of this world had practiced Prophet Ibrahim’s ( Abraham /Brahma) teachings it got corrupted even in Arabia as generations passed/evolved/progressed. ** What remains of that corrupted teachings is what the hindus are holding on to as the veda, smrti, Upanishad and currently called Hinduism in various forms and manifestations.
** Hence the Arabs were practicing slavery in those days prior to the establishing of Islam just as the hindus were and are still doing to this day, with the dalits .** That is why the message was removed from the Arabs and revealed to the Jews, ( change of qibla due to failure of the Arabs) after the revelation was revealed to the Jews and they too failed in keeping it intact , the message was reestablished through the final Prophet to the Arabs again, as prophesied to the prophets (which appears in the hindu scriptures too)
** Hence slavery was abolished gradually in Islam** , similar to alcohol being abolished in Islam, ** for this are matters that had been practiced and accepted by the community and will take time to eradicate . hence the message was given over and over again ( as quoted below) that slavery was Not the way and slaves should released or be treated with kindness and it was better not to have them.
Here again ** the term slavery includes bonded labor and laborers who lived and worked for food and lodging or other agreed upon matters. Thus at those times, there was no such term as employment or employee hence workers were generally called “slave” and employers were called masters. **
The Qur’an reveals
28: 26 Said one of the (damsels): "O my (dear) father! engage him on wages: truly the best of men for thee to employ is the (man) who is strong and trusty"...
27 He said: "I intended to wed one of these my daughters to thee ** on condition that thou serve me for eight years; but if thou complete ten years it will be (grace) from thee.** But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty: thou wilt find me indeed if Allah wills one of the righteous."
28 He ( Moses) said: "Be that (the agreement) between me and thee: whichever of the two terms I fulfil let there be no ill-will to me. Be Allah a witness to what we say."
Ibrahim says: ** hence even prophet Moses [pbuh] became a bonded slave and his wages was his wife **
So Please get educated and obtain knowledge before you try to compare or measure things with the same yard stick, not knowing what were ancient practices and how they are to be measured or understood.
Now let me guide you as to what was the practice in ancient times
HINDUISM & SLAVERY (BY CASTE) ( actual verse as appearing in hindu scared scripture)
"(The king) should make a Vaisya engage in trade, lend money, farm the land, or keep livestock; ** and (he should make) the Sudra the slave of the twice-born.** A Brahmin should out of mercy support both a Ksatriya and a Vaisya if they are starved for a livelihood, and have them carry out their own innate activities. But if a Brahmin, out of greed and a sense of power, makes twice-born men who have undergone the transformative rituals do the work of slaves against their will, the king should make him pay a fine of six hundred (pennies). ** He may, however, make a Sudra do the work of a slave, whether he is bought or not bought; for the Self-existent one created him to be the slave of the Brahmin. Even if he is set free by his master, a Sudra is not set free from slavery; ** for since that is innate in him, who can take it from him?
Ibrahim says; HENCE until the Qur’an was revealed these people (pagans as mentioned in the Qur’an refers to hindus) , Arabs and globally all people had practiced slavery without any pity or manumitting from slavery since it was believed to be a commandment for the Brahmins (believers) at that period and time .
Lets continue the passage, to understand the kind of definition slavery referred to ………….
** There are seven ways that slaves come into being: **
1) taken under a flag (of war),
2) becoming a slave in order to eat food,
3) born in the house,
4) bought,
5) given,
6) inherited from ancestors,
7) or enslaved as a punishment.
Ibrahim says; hence this is why Arabs/pagans had slaves in the first place and it was an accepted practice in those days. ** Now, take note , those taken in war (No: 1), enslaved as a punishment (No:7) cannot be released easily, unless there have fulfilled a certain commitment or have been seen to be of good moral conduct and can be trusted as free individuals in societies . ** This is like having prisoners of war and criminals under your care ( since there was no jail or penal system slavery was the only solution in those days) **
** Those becoming a slave in order to eat ( No: 2) are actually “employees” or workers in out current context but in those times they were all considered slaves since they had to serve others in order to survive . **
Those who were bought, would be the slaves that you may be arguing about and have knowledge about in our current time frame.
anyway lets continue this passage…………..
** A wife, a son, and a slave: these three are traditionally said to have no property;** whatever property they acquire belongs to the man to whom they belong. A Brahmin may with confidence take away any possession from a Sudra; for since nothing at all can belong to him as his own, his property can be taken away by his master. (The king) should make the Vaisya and the Sudra carry out their own innate activities diligently; for if the two of them should slip from their own innate activities, they would shake this universe into chaos." -- Manusmrti 8:410-418.
Ibrahim says: ** Hence it was because of Islam and only after Islam was re established in its pristine form as revealed to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) , Slavery was abolished in this planet but those who practiced it after the Prophet, had gone astray in the sense that they bought or enslaved others. ( Muslims too can go astray and that is why there is hell and heaven for all according to their works not according to their labels )
But those who had workers ( also called salves at that time frame) had done nothing wrong in Islam or otherwise, ** for the term slave applied to bonded workers and workers too. **
In fact, in Islam, one is proud to be a slave of Allah (swt) out of gratitude not out of compulsion. so much so many call themselves slaves of Allah (swt) .
[quote]
And, Slavery was/is not haram in Islam.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: this shows how little you comprehend the Qur’an as a whole.
Read and contemplate………
Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, ** and to set slaves free;** and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.
Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad (The City)
Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah,** what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, ** And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity.
Qur'an 24:27-34 Surah An-Nur (Light)
** And such of your slaves as seek a writing of emancipation, write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of God which He hath bestowed upon you.** Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! God will be Forgiving, Merciful...
Qur'an 5:89 Surah Al Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
God will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, ** or the liberation of a slave, ** and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three day fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths...
Need more ??? Here read!
58:3 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar then wish to go back on the words they uttered (it is ordained that such a one) ** should free a slave ** before they touch each other: this are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
There are more…try and find out, before you end up making unsound comments like above.
[quote]
It was integral part of mankind history and still is for islam because - the ayath 33:50 still exists and similar other ayaths that ENCOURAGES sex with the slaves.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : huh??? Which ayats encourages sex with slaves ??
Read!
Qur'an 24:27-34 Surah An-Nur (Light)
And such of your slaves as seek a writing of emancipation, write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of God which He hath bestowed upon you. ** Force not your slave girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world,** if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, Lo! God will be Forgiving, Merciful...
24: 32 ** Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female:** if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.
33 ** Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them) **
Ibrahim says: hello Mr Adbulmalick , had you knew how to spell your name correctly, Abdul would translate to slave , anyway are you rewriting the Qur’an or you have one tailored for yourself???
[quote]
Slavery and the verse re: Slavery are not abrogated. It has just become socially unacceptable and a CRIME.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; And all the above verses came from where?
[quote]
There are hadeeths (Sahih) that discusses captures of slaves;
review any sharia'h on the matter of Slaves and you will find copious data on the subject matter.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; on what contexts are they revealing matters, or do the sahih hadiths tells Muslims to collect slaves when the Qur’an forbids it?
I hope you will be more careful when you utter falsehoods for every word you utter will be accounted for by yourself alone. In addition to that the penalty for misleading others will also be born by you.
Read!
33: 66 The Day that their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire they will say: "Woe to us! would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Apostle!"
67 And they would say: ** "Our Lord! we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones and they misled us as to the (right) path.**
68 "Our Lord! ** give them Double Penalty and curse them with a very great Curse!"**
was salaam
Ibrahim
** we have two ears and one mouth; listen more and talk less . The secret of failure is trying to please everybody! **
http://www.malaysia.net/lists/sangkancil/2000-03/msg00055.html
President Wahid: Slavery Widespread in Saudi Arabia
This was when Wahid was still President of Indonesia.
**
Indonesian Observer
March 2, 2000
Wahid urges talks on Indonesian women working in Saudi Arabia
JAKARTA (IO) — President Abdurrahman Wahid says Indonesia must hold talks
with Saudi Arabia on the treatment of Indonesian women employed as maids in
the oil-rich country.
“We must hold a discussion so that we can resolve the existing problems and
both sides can understand each other. Indonesia no longer believes in
slavery,” he told members of the Mobile Brigade Police in Depok, West Java,
yesterday.
He expressed concern that many Saudis may treat their Indonesian servants as
slaves and sexually harass them.
Many Indonesian women who have worked abroad come home with horror stories of
being raped and badly treated by their foreign bosses.
But according to Wahid, the Indonesian media often makes inaccurate reports
on what goes on in Saudi Arabia.
“The mediaÂ’s descriptions created a public perception that our women workers
were raped. The situation is not like that. The Saudi people still believe in
the old Islamic teaching, which is belief in slavery. So a woman who works
for them is considered a slave,” he said.
For some men in Saudi Arabia, sexual relations with a housemaid are not
considered as rape, because they believe that such a practice is permitted by
their beliefs, he added.
Wahid also stressed the Saudi government does not believe in slavery, but the
practice is still common in society.
… **
These comments were made by a President of Indonesia, Wahid who is considered by many to be an Islamic Scholar. These were made in the year 2000!!! Not decades ago.
Anyone who knows people who have gone to work in Saudi Arabia as maids and servants know the treatment that is met out by the Saudis. We may wish that this is not so. But the facts speak for themselves.
[quote]
We may wish that this is not so. But the facts speak for themselves.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : ** Memories of the past are not memories of facts but memories of our imaginings of the facts. **
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**
[QUOTE]
We may wish that this is not so. But the facts speak for themselves.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : ** Memories of the past are not memories of facts but memories of our imaginings of the facts. ** **
[/QUOTE]
Slavery is not a MEMORY of the past. It is istitutionalized in the quran and like everything in the quran - it is for all eternity. Freeing slave is a function akin to doing good deed but one has to have slaves to free slaves.
Just like "women are 1/2 of men" and "must serve & pleasure men" are NOT memories but institutionalized in the quran & sunnah - for all eternity.
And, non-muslims are the vilest of ceatures and there can be rest until they affirm that there is no God bt Allah and Muhammed is his messenger - is no memory but institutionalized in the quran & sunnah - for all eternity.
I agree facts do indeed speak for themselves. Facts like Taleban, Saudi wahabiyyas, Nigeria, Sudan, UAE, Pak's experiment with sharia'h, for example.
Good Luck to you!
[quote]
Originally posted by Adbulmalick: Slavery is not a MEMORY of the past. It is istitutionalized in the quran
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all
Helloo Adbulmalick! Firstly you have misspelled your name , or maybe it is deliberate, but just to let you know that Adbul and Abdul can mean two different things in Arabic.
Now coming to the subject matter of this thread, I had requested that you ** kindly quote the verse in the Qur’an where free sex with slaves is being enjoined ** for Muslims as you had implied earlier.
Now ** I would like to further request you quote the verse where slavery is institutionalized in the Qur’an **
Now stay with the same topic and kindly do not get carried away, kindly quote the verses or tell us where you are coming from , such that we can conclude you may have a different version of the Qur’an tailored for yourself .
Regards
Ibrahim
** Even the most perfect being cannot escape the prefect consistency of God’s laws **
[quote]
per Ibrahim
**Now coming to the subject matter of this thread, I had requested that you kindly quote the verse in the Qur’an where free sex with slaves is being enjoined for Muslims as you had implied earlier.
Now I would like to further request you quote the verse where slavery is institutionalized in the Qur’an
Now stay with the same topic and kindly do not get carried away, **
[/quote]
Ibrahim,
what you seek has mostly been discussed on page #1.
Actually there are sahih hadeeths referring to capture & distribution of slaves as well as references to having sex with them.
Yes - thesee all backed up with the quran as well as copious islamic laws on the matter.
*If slavery - as you say was abolished by Islam then semi-slavery status of muslim women & all non muslims , for example, for abolished as well - that is per your understanding. *
Re: DEviatimg from the subject matter:
If this is a challenge - I gladly accept but may I suggest that you concentrate on RESPONSE purely from an Islamic perspective not not meander into diatribes against your favourite targets of Hindu & christian - bashings.
We are discussing Islam here not other religions NOR how my name is spelled or what the word and/or its variation means.
PLEASE refer to Page #1 and KEEP your responses short and to the point.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adbulmalick: what you seek has mostly been discussed on page #1.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all
Hey Adbulmalick! for whatever that had been discussed earlier, I had given a reply in my earlier post on this thread but since you had affirmed certain matters which does not exist in the Qur’an in my view, I had requested specific verse for them as mentioned by you and reaserted again in your replies.
** Would it be too difficult for you to quote the verses, again????? **
[quote]
Actually there are sahih hadeeths referring to capture & distribution of slaves as well as references to having sex with them.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: actually you need to quote them in full, with full references ( hadith numbers) so that it can be verified to affirm them or refute them.
Would that be toooo difficult for you to do???
Regards
Ibrahim
** If you are awake during day time, there is no need to burn the midnight oil. **