*Originally posted by myvoice: *
*You need to be more specific as to which violence you are speaking of. I, for instance, believe that Palestinian attacks on IDF forces are pretty legitimate and justified. I also believe that IDF attacks on bomb makers, armed militants, and Hamas leaders is justified. I also believe that some of the IDF attacks and actions are not justified or legitimate...most specifically those that don't pay due consideration (IMO) to the number of civilian casualties that might occur. No suicide bombings of buses, pizza parlors and malls are justified or legitimate in my mind. *
specific
Hamas/Fatah/al aqsa brigade can go after as many IDf personnel as they want. sure..
IDF can kill as many of the Hamas/Fatah guys as they want
Pizza parlours/public places are not right targets
indiscriminate shootings or taking actions where the civilian casualties could be high is also inappropriate.
*I wish that was the prevailing attitude but don't believe it is. If the IDF kills a Hamas leader, the prevailing attitude seems to be that 100 little Jewish children and their mothers are fair game for slaughter. *
I dont know if it is prevailing, but it is what we hear and see most.
*That's part of the reason for me starting the thread. Apparently, it is less important that lil kids get killed than it is who are the killers. Depending upon the identity of the killer, it is either a heinous war crime or just a boys-will-be-boys attitude. *
track record may be an issue also, the actions of syria are not continuing to this day and in that frequency, and people in refugee camps are not dealing with a continuation of violence on a frequent basis.
*The operative word here is "full". Is the building "full" of innocent kids or is it a fine "mix" of innocent kids and terrorist killers. *
Not only that, but pay attention to the wording of the reports that come out as well. Israeli forces shot and killed 12 ppl, including 4 "suspected" hamas members. whoa whoa..hold yer horses...in US and UK, we do not kill "suspects" scott peterson does not get teh chair because he is a suspect.
*You don't find an IDF tank "full" of innocent Jewish kids. I am very troubled by what I perceive as an accepted tactic of certain religiously inclined terrorist thugs to deliberately use large numbers of "innocent kids" and women and others as shields. *
Okay, so when these thugs use innocent ppl as shields, do they use the same number as shields day in day out, does a hamas leader hiding in a building housing innocent civilians load them all up in a tour bus when he moves from place to place (damn, i may have given the byatches an idea here :( ) ..dude moves in an armed car..blow his ass up then. Be a little bit more..humane. dont act like the terrorists that have no regard for innocent lives. If Hamas & co think that the innocent lives they butcher are okay since it is is leading them towards their objectives, then when IDF takes on irresponsible actions where the civilian casualties are high, but that is justified as worth the mission. I dont see much difference.
*When terrorists do this, you are sort of faced with a real Sophie's Choice. If the terrorist(s) that are legitimate targets will kill 100 people if they get away and they surround themselves with 10 innocent kids to protect themselves, do you walk away saving 10 innocent lives at the expense of the deaths of 100 others? *
Mv the casualty count on both sides paints a different picture. and as I noted again. the guy is not going to be hiding in a building forever, he will move and that is the right time.
Additionally maybe a mission where you send snipers and commandos to get him, where u have some military casualties on your end and you get the target instead of lobbing some missiles at a housing complex or attacking an apartment complex with fighter jets and helicopters.
These are not easy calls or easy decisions. And often, they must be made in split seconds.
MV Israel's retaliation to suicide attacks is not a knee jerk reaction attack, it does not happen 10 minutes later. Everyone knows that a retaliation will be made, yet the method of retaliation is always the same, ruthless, vulgar display of power, as a punitive treatment for not just the "suspected" cell, but to everyone around there who really wants nothing to do with it, except the ability to live a dignified life where they can do well for themselves and their family.
** Sometimes it is better not to attack the building where the Hamas terrorist is hiding out amongst 100 innocents. Better to wait until he leaves and gets in his car and hit him with a missile. That's still a dangerous attack. Maybe 4 innocents also die. You can be darn sure that people will decry the slaughter of the 4 innocents by the IDF without considering the 100 that weren't killed in the building a moment before and the 100 that would have been killed in the imminent suicide attack. **
Or a sniper...yes and no matter whatever is done people will still be upset at innocent casualties. If my child happened to be in that area when a missile hit the area and he died, you can be darn sure that I will be pissed, not only me my family and neighbourhood will be pissed.
yes the casualty count would have been reduced by targetting the guy in the street rather than in the car, but honestly do you think people will say, oh thats okay..atleast they did not bomb the building he was in.
That would always be the sentiment..that however does not excuse a decision based on..oh well we will hear it anyways, so why wait until the SOB gets in the car lets just blow up the building and be done with it. Or lets go and bulldoze the home of a suicide bomber..what do his kids,parents, siblings have to do with his action.
That..in my view is an irresponsible, morally reprehensible and barbaric decision..IDF has taken that decision again and again.
*When you hear people so easily and quickly label the death of 4 innocents in my example above as evidence of genocide and never say a peep about things like Sabra and Shatil circa 1985, it gets awfully old, awfully quick. *
true, and on the other side of teh coin when you see an ongoing campaign of IDf acting the way they are, and everyone being silent about their atrocities or even making excuses for them, that gets old very quick too.
Sabira and Shateela was a tragedy, period. For IDF though it is one major blemish on their record prior to that, then and since then which is has blemishes on it and it only continues to add those.
I know palestinians who hate Pakistan and Pakistanis for the help Pakistani advisors provided to Jordan to crush the Palestinian uprising..but that was a one time thing, they have never forgiven Pakistan for that, but it is not a part of a continuing and ongoing daily situation that they face.