Whatever u say but I would never believe that Hazrat Ali (R.A) or Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) could had imagined compromise when religion of Islam was at stake or some one tried to innovate it..its a big slender ur making that Hazrat Umer made innovations in religion..and Hazrat Ali was silent..Infact Hazrat Ali onnmany occations helped other Sahabs when certain points in religion were discussed..
and why ru forcing the infallibility of ur 12 imams .. just say its ur faith .. dont think other people in the world r stupid enough to see truth.. Hazrat Umers namewould be praised around thge world whatever u try to say..while some of ur Imams noone knows.. may be they were good muslims but infallible on what grounds ??
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Seems like the qur'an is not sufficient afterall, as Umar bin Khattab postulated. 2001).]
[/quote]
If this thread was in honor of infallibility Prophet Mhhammad and ur 12 Imams then why u bring Hazrat Umar in it.. oit always amazes me that ur faith is not complete without cursing someone... u brought his na,me in thius thread ..as most of muslims love him and dont go after ur false propaganda we have to say what we think... check ur venom ridden sources again..
Go and discuss the fallibility and infallibility, like it would make you 'muttaqi'.
can we emphasize or gather the "PLUS" of both? everytime there raises some point of controversy, ppl start slandering the companions of Prophet PBUH one way or the other. Now we are questioning the personality of Prophet PBUH himself (one way or the other). Why can't we just focus on the teachings about how to lead good life, how to get appreciated before Allah etc.???
everyone at this point forgets the teaching of "patience"/"tolerance".
we always tend to be "fired up" or "energized" as soon as someone initiates a controversial topic.
I started a thread asking Shia bros for names of hadith books which in their belief are more accurate than 'sihah sitta' of Sunni beleif, only 1 or 2 ppl responded even that was after 2 days. I'm thankful to those who responded. But no one else gives a damn if other makes a positive discussion / approach. This is very sad.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 16, 2001).]
I did not wish to offend anyone by providing my point of view. We learn through discussion, and even if we disagree in the end, we get to gather knowledge.
What I have said about fallibility of Muhammad(sm) is what Allah has clearly said in Qur'an. These are not my words, these are the words of God. We are not judging character of the Holy Prophet(sm) (whom we deem as sinless like all other prophets) but we are trying to understand what God has sent down in His Book. If someone can provide me an alternate interpretation, it would be worthwhile looking at it. In the meantime, we need to understand that we should judge arguments by reasoning, and not by our beliefs or our wants or what we have felt all our lives about a certain religious concept.
Best Regards,
Omer
[This message has been edited by oiqbal (edited July 17, 2001).]
The point you should know is that the Sahabas cannot be compared with the Ahle Bait. It is as simple as that. They are on different levels altogether.
Sahaba were ordinary men like you and me.
But Ahle Bait were special. Ali (AS) was born inside the Ka'aba.
Ali (AS) and his family were also the only people who were allowed inside the Masjid Al Haram REGARDLESS of their state of "pakeezgi/najasat".
Did you know this fact? Why did the Prophet PBUH allow this?
[quote]
Originally posted by alizadeh2000:
**
But Ahle Bait were special. Ali (AS) was born inside the Ka'aba.
Ali (AS) and his family were also the only people who were allowed inside the Masjid Al Haram REGARDLESS of their state of "pakeezgi/najasat".
Did you know this fact? Why did the Prophet PBUH allow this?**
[/quote]
Being a Sunni, I am unaware of that Hazrat Ali (RA) was born in ka'aba, was it Haram Shareef or the walls of ka'aba itself??
Can you please give me the hadith in which Prophet PBUH allowed Hazrat Ali (RA) and ahle-bait to enter in Haram-Shareef (or Ka'aba) irrespective of state of pakeezgi?
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Changez, he was born inside the Ka'aba, not just the Haram Shareef.
His mother was present inside the Haram Shareef when she felt the pain of childbirth. She turned to leave, but at that moment, a part of the wall of the Ka'aba disintegrated and an opening was formed. She got the signal, she went inside and gave birth.
This is agreed upon by both Sunni and Shi'a ulema, however Sunni ulema will not mention it UNTIL you go up to them and specifically ask them to describe this incident for you.
Sunni ulema generally do not like to bring up this topic which obviously proves the superiority of Ali (AS) over the the Sahabis.
Therefore you must go up to them and ask them.
Meanwhile I will give you hadith references, plz be patient.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** Being a Sunni, I am unaware of that Hazrat Ali (RA) was born in ka'aba, was it Haram Shareef or the walls of ka'aba itself??
Can you please give me the hadith in which Prophet PBUH allowed Hazrat Ali (RA) and ahle-bait to enter in Haram-Shareef (or Ka'aba) irrespective of state of pakeezgi?
**
[/quote]
.. why u people make mystism ..may be he was born there but wuz a big deal in that.. do that mean he is greatest in eyes of God from all minkind ? what bout Allahs love for Hazrat Mosa that he actually came and showed his jhalak and for Hazrat Issa and Hazrat Muhammad... people have tried here to prove 12 imamas of shias greater than messengers of God and thts strange and ridiculous..
Hazrat Ali (r.a) merit lies not his birth or relationship to anybody but his own efforts for the cause of Islam..his knowledge that he acquired by hardwork ..his bravery at battle field with so many woung marks show that he was human being but great folloer of Prophet Muhammad and loved Islam.. I admire his human greatness not some so-called ghebi things attributed by some people..
Degas, you are misinterpreting important information.
Nobody is saying 12 Imams are better than the Prophets PBUH.
On the other hand, the birth of Ali (AS) was a sign of God, to indicate the importance of the Imam and his role for the future. This doesn't mean he becomes better than the Prophets PBUH.
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH allowed Ali (AS) and his family to enter and leave Haram Shareef regardless of their state of pakeezgi/najasat. This is in hadeeth. This was only to show their extraordinary position bestowed by Allay (swt) as the rightful guardians of the faith. 12 Imams are a natural outcome of Allay's will.
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
**.. why u people make mystism ..may be he was born there but wuz a big deal in that.. do that mean he is greatest in eyes of God from all minkind ? what bout Allahs love for Hazrat Mosa that he actually came and showed his jhalak and for Hazrat Issa and Hazrat Muhammad... people have tried here to prove 12 imamas of shias greater than messengers of God and thts strange and ridiculous..
Hazrat Ali (r.a) merit lies not his birth or relationship to anybody but his own efforts for the cause of Islam..his knowledge that he acquired by hardwork ..his bravery at battle field with so many woung marks show that he was human being but great folloer of Prophet Muhammad and loved Islam.. I admire his human greatness not some so-called ghebi things attributed by some people..
**
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by alizadeh2000:
**Degas, you are misinterpreting important information.
Nobody is saying 12 Imams are better than the Prophets PBUH.
On the other hand, the birth of Ali (AS) was a sign of God, to indicate the importance of the Imam and his role for the future. This doesn't mean he becomes better than the Prophets PBUH.
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH allowed Ali (AS) and his family to enter and leave Haram Shareef regardless of their state of pakeezgi/najasat. This is in hadeeth. This was only to show their extraordinary position bestowed by Allay (swt) as the rightful guardians of the faith. 12 Imams are a natural outcome of Allay's will.
**
[/quote]
just a curiosity, where was Prophet PBUH himself borned?
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
i am extremely busy with my midterms, plz wait for me to get back to u guys.
thanx
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** just a curiosity, where was Prophet PBUH himself borned?
**
[/quote]
... yaar in ko aese question kar ke pareshan na karo.. in ke paas Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) ke bare men jannane ko time hi nahin he.. har waqt to sahaba ke peche pade rehte hen ya ..
i have attended maajlisis in Lahore and am ashamed to say that whenever Prophet Muhammad's name was mentioned theresponse from audiences was very feeble as compared to when Hazrat Ali's name was mentioned.. though its clear to most muslims that revelation only came to Prophet muhammad in form of Quran .. and all other Islamic figures just followed him and hes only important figure in Islamic religion..
Changez,
By all accounts, our holy prophet (pbuh) was born in his father's house, after his death.
He (pbuh) was born on Monday, the 12th of Rab'i-ul Awwal in the year of the Elephant.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the son of ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abdul Muttalib.
After the birth of our holy apostle (pbuh), his mother, Amina, sent someone to inform his grandfather, Abdul Muttalib. He came, looked at the baby lovingly and took him to the K’aba where he praised Allah and prayed for the infant.
Abdul Muttalib then gave him the name Muhammad, which means, ‘He who is praised’.
ws
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** ... yaar in ko aese question kar ke pareshan na karo.. in ke paas Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) ke bare men jannane ko time hi nahin he.. har waqt to sahaba ke peche pade rehte hen ya ..
i have attended maajlisis in Lahore and am ashamed to say that whenever Prophet Muhammad's name was mentioned theresponse from audiences was very feeble as compared to when Hazrat Ali's name was mentioned.. though its clear to most muslims that revelation only came to Prophet muhammad in form of Quran .. and all other Islamic figures just followed him and hes only important figure in Islamic religion..
**
[/quote]
yaar Degas bhai aap aisee baatein na karein. Yeh panjetan ka pyaar hay kya???? Kiski waja say hay????Agar hazoor nahee hota tou kya koi inko jaanta?
Aaur kya yeh aap hi ki sunni kitaaboun mein hadith nahee hay kay "Haq Ali say pehchana jaega". Jab Imam Ali ka naam liya jaata hay tou logg salawaat hee bhejtay hein na, koi Ali ka kalma tou nahee purhtay!!!
Sub hazoor par hee salawat bhejtay hein.
Please aap ghalat interpretion na karein. Mujhay bohat afsoos hota hay dekh kar. Shia hazoor ko jitnee manzilat daitay hein na, oska aap ko andaza nahee bilkul....
w's
Yeah if being born in Kabah is some kind of Fazeelat then Prophet(peace be upon him and his family) deserved more than Ali to be born in Kabah.
Even if Ali(Radi Allah an hu) would have been born somewhere else that doesn't make any difference to his status.
Hadrat Ali(radi Allah an hu) is great no doubt about that but not infallible.
But that doesn't mean we should start finding any thing negative about him. Our Sunni belief is....if you find anything negative about Sahabas, just keep your mouth shut only come out with positive things about them.
And Ali(Radi Allah an hu)??????
He is the leader of Tariqah, sun of spirituality. All the knowledge of Tariqah comes from Ali(Radi Allah an hu) which has given us Auliyas like
Pir Abdul Qadar Jilani
Junaid Baghdadi
Ba Yazid Bustami
Bukhteyar Kaki
Khwaja Ajmeri
Zakriya Multani
and many many more,
they were given just one drop from the sea of knowledge Ali
And Ali's knowledge comes from Prophet's(peace be upon him) knowledge, Prophet's(peace be upon him) knowledge is from Allah.
Allah knows how much Prophet(peace be upon him) was given.
[quote]
Originally posted by alizadeh2000:
**
The point you should know is that the Sahabas cannot be compared with the Ahle Bait. It is as simple as that. They are on different levels altogether.
Sahaba were ordinary men like you and me.
But Ahle Bait were special. Ali (AS) was born inside the Ka'aba.
Ali (AS) and his family were also the only people who were allowed inside the Masjid Al Haram REGARDLESS of their state of "pakeezgi/najasat".
Did you know this fact? Why did the Prophet PBUH allow this?**
[/quote]
.. Ali I dont consider ur 12 imams as infallible and its not part of my faith simple as that but am happy if u consider then infallible.. may be they were great muslims and no one u or me can compare anyone ..judgement is for Allah alone... those 12 and Sahabas and u and me are all same and our taqwah will decide bout our fate.. its basic whats inspires me bout Islam..equality and equal chance to succeed or family or birth heritage...
Paglu,
am happy that u talk in a very nice way and dont have venom or hate like a1shah or Sheraz.. i said what I saw ..didnt copied any material from net...