Read the history books man.
~~~mOrE LoVe iS NeVeR eNoUgH~~~
Jaan-e-mun Jaan-e-Tamanaa
Edharr aah teriyaaN LaatTaanN PunNaa-n
Thanks guys for your input.
Malik,
That is a very accurate description of the caste system. My ancestors were sikh which is the reason why my family belive in it so strongly because it is a tradition of the sikhs which has been carried down even though they became muslims.
NyAhmadi, you said:
**Zat-pat and caste system in Pakistan is alive (mostly in rural Pakistan) and is safely ensconced. As much as we try to ignore its existence, it is prevalent in many Islamic societies. For example, the Quresh has been given a high place, and Waris (the working class) falls pretty much beneath a big pileup of in-between castes. Castes in Punjab are mainly dictated by the professional affiliation of a person, and not necessarily with lineage. E.g., Moochi, Dhobis, Zamindars, etc. The social status is dictated pretty much from top-down and it is a rarity to see the low-castes being represented in any of our civic setups. When was the last time you heard that a Moochi’s son became a General or the MP in Punjab? Although people do tend to deny that it does not exist, it does.
However, things are changing now and wealth is the name of the game. A Moochi with a lot of moola has more respect and prestige than a Phanka Chaudry. Tomorrow it might be the education that dictates the social status of a person. So these are the cultural idiosyncrasies and are present in all societies. The only way to change this is to think out of the box.
By the way, the least respected caste (other than a Movie caste) is Kanjars of Hira Mandi. If any of the so-called high castes will let their daughter (e.g., Bhuttos, Khar, Jonaigo, Sangals, Pirachas, etc.) marry a Kangar’s son, I will believe that caste system does not exist in Pakistan. To get an idea, just read some matrimonial and see how much emphasis is placed on caste. Although some may read “zat paat ki koi tameez nahee”, which means that either the girl is over 40, or the boy is Metric Fail.**
You are absolutely right , the amount of times I have heard people say "just cuz hes now got money hes changed his zaat from Mochi to a Raja. Money has alot of power..for some.
Najim,
Sorry to sound ignorant but what does "nutfa" mean?
Interesting Topic Mariah. I agree with Malik's discription of the caste system. Infact it is quite accurate. And sad as it is I think the caste system does exist in Pakistan.
What u said Mariah, about folks not mixing with the lower income households, is true to some extent. There is still a lot of emphasis on money among some Pakistani families. But I have been taught not to turn away someone's friendship just because their social and financial status might be lower than ours. I make friends because of the kind of person they are inside. Not because of how much money they or their parents have. Nor do I try to measure their social status with that of my family's and mine's.
I also agree with what someone else has mentioned. Things are changing drastically. Nowadays, lots of folks are getting education and because of the high paying jobs, their careers lead them into, making money is not as difficult as it might have been once. Social status is changing for many. Therefore, in the long run money and status is not to be the basis of judgement. All that changes but what remains the same is who we are inside.
I think different races, money, zaat paats, these were all things made by Allah for some diversity, for some spice. I don't think the it was meant to be made a basis for judgement.
we have to marry in our caste... by that i mean me. personally i dont believe in this caste business...i mean we r all muslims right?
my parents and family friends would not even consider marrying outside the caste. its just a hopless situation, i guess the younger generation to some extent are realising that caste is not important, but how do u get ur parents to realise that to?the weird thing is the majority of our family friends are raja and we get along really well.
ooh well i guess its just the way they were brought up..
Ditto cinderella
And Ditto from me to ! :)
Nutfa = semen (direct meanings)
Nutfa = genes (indirect meanings)
actually meant genetically transferred habits.
Raja,
Well there are several kinds of Raja, famous and well known is the caste living around pindi (Rawalpindi) area. They are landlords of that area. Other kinds are mirpuri Rajay & Rajay qasai (or wadh qasai). Well one has to take step, if u know you can make it then clear it to you parents that u dont want to marry in the family.
I was pushed to marry someone in my family but I straight away refused & married someone I like rather than putting my head down and doing what my parents said. Althought I might be marked as "naa farmaan" selfish etc etc (my mother gave me the green signel to go ahead) & yes I took a step. It might be far difficult for a girl to do that but if u are tying a knot then its ur life, u have a right to make ur opinion known to the rest of your family.
[This message has been edited by Najim (edited September 15, 2000).]
Najim: It's good that you didn't bow down to pressure.
I know of girls that get married because of their parents and then are unhappy with the marraige, more often than not because the guy is from Pakistan and the girl is from here - their cultures are very different.
I think women need to take more of a stand if they are being 'persuaded' to marry somebody they don't want to. It may be difficult but your parents are human, they are not always right. I know it can be very difficult, but isn't it better than taking such a big gamble with your life?
On the other hand, there are women who are perfectly happy with their marriages that their parents have organised.. mashallah!
[quote]
Originally posted by Najim:
**
It might be far difficult for a girl to do that but if u are tying a knot then its ur life, u have a right to make ur opinion known to the rest of your family.
[This message has been edited by Najim (edited September 15, 2000).]**
[/quote]
It IS much more difficult for a girl to do the same.. On the issue of marriage it doesnt matter whether you have a love marriage or arranged, it is a gamble either way. I know many love marriages that have crumbled within a year and also many arranged that have crumbled. if neither spouse is willing to make an effort then it is gonna go down. It doesnt matter if it was by choice or not.
I myself had an arranged marriage from Pakistan, and yes within the family but not too close. And compared to SOME guys in the UK the ones from over their are better because thay have a sense of culture. We get on reasonably well and very rarely argue, but then I suppose cuz we only see each other in the evenings, we dont have much to argue about.He wants to go back there cuz he had a job in the airforce and was "sorted" which I suppose begs the question "Why did`nt he marry someone from over there"? But that is a different topic altogether.
This`ll make you laugh, I had to marry him cuz he was the only available male in our caste AND within the family!!!!
[This message has been edited by Mariah (edited September 15, 2000).]
Mariah: It's good that you are happy and that it has worked out. But i'm sure there are many out there that have a different story.
You are right, a love marraige is a gamble too, but Allah has given us a brain for a reason. If a girl says she doesn't want to marry a man because he is not good looking - then that is one thing, but if she doesn't want to marry him because she doesn't like his character then that is more serious. If common sense tells you that it's not going to work, then do you just accept it?
Guys from Pakistan may have a lot of culture, but a lot of them also come with a lot of 'cultural' attitude which discriminates against women. i.e. Women not working.
Of course, the men over here aren't any better, just different :)
The caste system derived from Hinduism, but I can't understand why we still continue to stick by it?
Mariah: Would you continue the Caste system onto your children?
Cooldude,
I agree 100% with what you have said above.
Me personally..mmmm..I really see everyone as equal..i feel however that my husband has a stronger sense of this caste thing and if anyone makes it difficult for my kids in the sense that they wanna marry someone outside then it will be him. To tell you the truth I really dont know how I would cope with it all....have to think about it
I can’t actually relate to that because my parents taught me that all muslims are equal.. actually they would like me to marry a Pakistani, because she will be from the same culture..
To me, a muslim is a muslim. However I would like to marry a Pakistani so that my kids can learn Urdu and know about Pakistani culture as well as Islam. 
wherever color differences exists caste system creeps in regarldles of religen and different regions of the world