Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
After all the replies, one fails to see any concrete examples(forget about the evidence), where the Musharaff government is directly related in corruption scandal....And only assumptions that the currenet government is corrupt just because the previous Pakistani governments were corrupt too.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Mywish, i think there is a little bit of a difference between your brother getting into a fight, versus my own uncle being kidnapped, one being assassinated, commerical property being taken over, orchards being burnt, kidnap threats against my brothers and I for as means of extortion so my dad selects govts cronies as winners of major world bank contracts. There are other events of smaller magnitude or from times before BB and nawaz’s govt as well.
I am niether pro or anti musharraf, I am just against the current crop of politicians.
None of these jokers is sincere enough, capable enough and honest enough to get my vote of confidence.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
agreed…a ll u see is mere speculation
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
There is never proof when a govt is on power, it is all 'rumour’s while they are in govt, maybe one or two things come out many years after
The first rule is to never leave a trail, so its not easy to prove, for anyone
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
in that case bb and nawaz really screwed up because there was plenty of proof during their regime of the loot khasoot that was going on.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Oh really? Everbody knows their corrupt to the tune of billions, but where is the proof that you are talking about?
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
buahahah, you call the kettle black, but arent willing to accept the truth?
They are all corrupt, its the way to be.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
just to give you the VERY OBVIOUS hints, but then again if someone doesn’t want to believe in it then you can’t shove it into their minds/hearts. If you are looking for an “example” in the aftermath of earthquake, then believe me, there are plenty of firsthand accounts of army itself involved in the problems (selling tents)… yeah yeah there are black sheep in army.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Fraudia, I really feel sorry for what your family had to go through during the “democratic” or the “sham democracy” period of our country. That’s plain and simple injustice. Period.
Let me just give you my end of the story, my brother and my mentor who spent all his life abroad finally decided to come and settle in Islamabad, bought a big piece of land for house in the ICT. Moved to his new house in 1998, not realizing that one of the neighbors was unhappy with his purchase of land. The neighbor started threatening and harassing my three young nephews. My brother, who was totally unfamiliar with the Pakistani law system, called the police and requested a meeting since he wanted to know what was bothering the neighbor, nothing came up with the meeting. On October 12 1999 there was a change in the guards, a new military regime was in place. But that was just the start of the nightmare, on 15 November 1999 that neighbor who was an ex-army officer came to my brothers house and threatened my brother to leave the house or otherwise, they were armed, they started thrashing the furniture when my brother resisted, they shoot at him on blank range twice. While he was bleeding on the ground my 16-year-old nephew was hit on his head while he tried to help his dad. Those two weeks when my brother and nephew were both in the ICU struggling for their lives that ex-army officer continued the harassment. Shoots were fired on the house where my dad and sisters were staying at that time.
We did file an FIR naming names, in November of 1999. My bother with an amputated leg kept on going to the police one year after the incident before any warrants were issued as per police. But that army officer was still around with his thugs. My brother accompanied with a lawyer went to a magistrate with the copy of the FIR in his hand. Summon were issued for the SHO to bring all the papers, the SHO came to the court after four months, and when he came to the court he denied his police station ever issued any FIR and said that that’s not even their FIR register. The judge, who had the copy in his hand had to tell my brother that he couldn’t proceed since there was no FIR registered, and the copy we had was just a “kachi” FIR. The magistrate ordered the SHO to issue a new FIR, and then my brother was harassed by the police.
Now imagine what my brother had to go through, in an hostile environment with three kids and wife and no protection from the system, he ultimatly had to sell his house and move back to Lahore.
This July I was in Islamabad, I went to that police station, talked to the SHO, I told him every thing, I even offered him money so he can register a case so we can go to the court. But you know what he said, "lets wait for the military rule to be over then there might be some chance, since that ex-army officer is very well connected to the GHQ".
Now the main question is, since there are so many other real stories like mine and yours around in Pakistan from different military and democratic eras, can this suffice for our opposition to any rule by democratic or non-democratic administrations? No, I don’t think so, I think we have to take a step back and look at the broader picture here. In Pakistan there is no rule of law, the rule of law is for those who have the money, the connections and the power in any administration be it military or democracy. Until this culture doesn’t change there is no hope for any Just or fair Pakistani society.
Or let me put it this way, have you ever heard the phrase, that the government in Pakistan have been changing after every few years, but it’s the same old Thanydar, tahsildar, magistrate court tay Kehcheri. So nothing has changed, so let strive for something higher than just mere military or democratic Pakistan.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Minime
man I am shocked, just to know that others on GS have gone thru such things. Nt shocked that this type of crap happens.
maybe we can start a diff thread and have ppl write their first hand experiences or what their family has had to face during different regimes, or in dealings with diff groups.
I am sorry to hear about the impact on your family and pray that the responsible people are punished in the strongest manner by authorities and by God.
I also agree with you that there is no sense of justice or fair play. I have noted it previously too that while awam are very happy talking about govt corruption, but everyone is looking for #2 kaam or a short cut one way or the other.
we have to strive for changing at a grassroots level..
as far as politicnas go, we need to put them all and their immediate relatives and friends in the politicians homes, blow up the house, bulldoze teh site and pur acid on the land so no plants grow there. ..okay maybe that is a little too extreme..
point being, no one that I see in leadership positions, whether military, MMA, PPP. PPPP, PML ( all groups, including group chay) seems to be what Paksitan needs, and not even Imran Khan whose party has a great manifesto but just can execute jack. so why support any of them..the real work is reform and change at street level, and strengthening of our judicial system.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
the reality is a lot of what goes on under dictatorships (military or civilian) are never documented..most of the exposes of BB and NS were done by investigatve journalists and writers..and what few convictions have happened..happened many years after the event..Ayub khans family was notoriusly known for how it accumalated wealth..as have Zias family and Akhtar Rehmans family..the Chaudhrys of Gujarat are another group..the reality is the overwhelming majority of people closely associated with the present govt are extremists or opportunists who represent the biggest feudals, robber baron industrialists, sardars and biradris in Pakistan. The few exceptions to the rule are groups like the MQM and a few small parties, as well as a few individuals like Shaukat Aziz..in there cases working with the gov is simply under the beliefe that something is better than nothing.
It is sad tho that many Mushy supporters use the same arguments in defense of Mush that were used in defense of BB and NS..simply that there is no proof...but the running joke nowadays is that the priorities of the present governments real rulers are two things.. F-16's and plots in F-16
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Very true Fraudz. There were allegations and proof that they, their spouses and family members were involved in high level corruption and loot e.g. Asif Zardari and his father, Abba jee of Nawaz etc, during their tenures in power. In six years there has never been a single case, either serious allegations or proof that Musharraf, his spouse or family members have been involved in corruption, and the same for Shaukat Aziz.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Captain ji, allow me to be very clear on certain points. I’m not a pro-Musharaff. If you ever get a chance to go through my other posts in other threads, you will see that I have never hesistated to critisise the present government. Now having said that, Nawaz Sharif was allowed to leave, a bad policy from my point of view as well, but it was more of a political deal, just like the current government got into a deal with MMA. But I would not call it a corruption; bad policy—Yes indeed. Was Ehtesaab a sham? IMO, in the beginning, it worked just fine. We went after some big fish like the former navy admiral(caught in the U.S.) along with some others. Then 9-11 happened, and government’s priorities shifted as well. Can NAB be made more autonomous and effective–Yes indeed. But again you can not call that corruption. Bad policy decisions–Ofcourse.
After the earthquake created havoc in our Land of the Pure, President Musharaff did what any developing country’s president would do, and that is to ask for international help. Billions of rupees have been donated to the presidents’s charity fund. Will there be corruption(knowing Pakistan’s history), more than like Yes. Will the corruption be related directly to President Musharraf or PM Aziz—NO. The crony minister/ junior army officials along with the civil bureaucracy will be involved in corruption.
Now you are probably wondering, so whats the difference b/w the previous governments of BB, NS and the present government? The difference b/w the two is the during the BB and NS governments the entire governments was corrupt, including the leadership. In the current set-up the leadership is very clean, but people beneath the President and the PM are corrupt(although thats a mere speculation on my part, since there is no substantial allegations, and again I’m not asking for evidence).
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
^ mere bhai, what you call "bad policy" is plain and simple "corruption", corruption doesn't always involve "money" only, there is something called "rule", "ethics", "morals"... and nobody really knows how much money was offered by Saudis to rescue ganja. Ehtesaab operation was some success only for first few months but it had faded long before 9-11, IMO. The "corruption" of leader you are talking about was a knowledge among common people because in those days the ghundas like Asif Zardari was looting even common people, I agree that Musharraf is not directly involved in looting public, but it doesn't mean he is clean. Overall our "economy" may seem to be doing better, as 'indicated' to some extent by KSE but corruption is still thriving at all levels. Look post above by MiniMe to show how army is involved in all other sorts of corruption (fiscal not excluded).
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Its that time of the year man. Do dua that Allah release Pakistan from the clutches of Generals, land lords and criminals before they eat the country alive
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
what we have to accept is that corruption exists in all govts in all countries to some level, now it should not be gross corruption which is a free for all. BUt there is development and growth and improvment alongside the corruption.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
nations per se are not destroyed by fiscal corruption..they are impoverished at worst..nations are destroyed by the corruption of power..the present government is on a direct path towards more corruption and what little good that has been done is being wiped out..as i said some 3 years ago if you sleep with digs you wake up with fleas.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
What development and growth?
I visited Pakistan earlier this year, after 3 years and i did not find even a single new road in the city.
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
“Development” is not necessarily growth/construction of “roads”? Besides, did you visit all parts of Pakistan and found no “new” roads?
Re: The best and the worst-Ayaz Amir, great coulumn!
Zakk you analysis is very accurate.