Re: Surrogacy
No. DNA test confirms who supplied egg (biological mother) and who supplied the sperm (biological father). No matter who carries the child, the fact of biol. mother and father can be confirmed and never changed.
No. DNA test confirms who supplied egg (biological mother) and who supplied the sperm (biological father). No matter who carries the child, the fact of biol. mother and father can be confirmed and never changed.
Peace Mamaof3
"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents; in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth" (Qur'an 46:15).
The point Hareem01 is making is that Islamically there is no significance to the genetic makeup of a person to constitute parenthood. Islamically even the surrogate mother is the biological mother, because it is her milk that flows when she gives birth and it is her blood in the child. It was her pains during the term and it was her pains during the birth, it was her placenta touching the childs umbilical. A surrogate is no less a biological mother ... is she?
Another hadith about a man who speaks with Muhammad (SAW) says he wants to repay the favour of his mother over him, and he said that he carried his mother on his back doing the Hajj and the reply was that if he were to do it over many times he would only repay ONE pang of birth pain. The pain is not part of the genetic mother at all ... The surrogate qualifies fully.
Now with modern norms and contract law we are taking the divine right of child and birthing mother away from each other ... and this is not open to interpretation Islamically ... but it is open to be accepted or rejected on personal choice. Choosing personal choice over Islamic understanding is unIslamic.
They are if they maintain their right of Motherhood!..:k:
Yes!
**Points in that direction!
**
Yes!
All sound fair enough!
A Joint Family structure would be far better than reducing Women to Baby Factories…
Re: Surrogacy
Peace to you also Psyah!
You talk of the pains of giving birth. Yet, more painful it is for a woman never to know these special pains. More painful it is to never have these pains and to bear this monumental thankfulness to a surrogate who bears those physical pains for you!
A surrogate is one who lends her body for the nurture of another's child. It does not make her a biological parent in the same way that breastfeeding does not make the child of another's hers. Surely, carrying a child which is not your own is a monumentally greater task than breastfeeding another's child...but is essentially the same in a biological and scientific sense.
Peace Mamaof3
"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents; in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth" (Qur'an 46:15).
The point Hareem01 is making is that Islamically there is no significance to the genetic makeup of a person to constitute parenthood. Islamically even the surrogate mother is the biological mother, because it is her milk that flows when she gives birth and it is her blood in the child. It was her pains during the term and it was her pains during the birth, it was her placenta touching the childs umbilical. A surrogate is no less a biological mother ... is she?
Another hadith about a man who speaks with Muhammad (SAW) says he wants to repay the favour of his mother over him, and he said that he carried his mother on his back doing the Hajj and the reply was that if he were to do it over many times he would only repay ONE pang of birth pain. The pain is not part of the genetic mother at all ... The surrogate qualifies fully.
Now with modern norms and contract law we are taking the divine right of child and birthing mother away from each other ... and this is not open to interpretation Islamically ... but it is open to be accepted or rejected on personal choice. Choosing personal choice over Islamic understanding is unIslamic.
Does that mean that the dedication, love, generosity, and hard work of an adopted mother is worthless? Is she not a mother?
Does that mean that the dedication, love, generosity, and hard work of an adopted mother is worthless? Is she not a mother?
Peace Sahar02
She is a substitute better having a mother than no mother, but it is better having THE mother than 'a' mother. THE mother according to Islam is not the egg donor, but it is the woman who goes through the motions of motherhood.
Re: Surrogacy
Peace to you too, psyah.
^ "motions of motherhood" -- labor and such are some of those. But what about feed, clothing, educating?
Peace to you also Psyah!
You talk of the pains of giving birth. Yet, more painful it is for a woman never to know these special pains. More painful it is to never have these pains and to bear this monumental thankfulness to a surrogate who bears those physical pains for you!
A surrogate is one who lends her body for the nurture of another's child. It does not make her a biological parent in the same way that breastfeeding does not make the child of another's hers. Surely, carrying a child which is not your own is a monumentally greater task than breastfeeding another's child...but is essentially the same in a biological and scientific sense.
Peace Mamaof3
Qur'an **
*3: *37*. Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
**3: 38.* There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!
3: 39. While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "(Allah) doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
3: 40. He said: "O my lord! How shall I have a son seeing I am very old and my wife is barren?" "Thus" was the answer "doth Allah accomplish whatt He willeth."
Surah 39 Verse 10 Say you. O My Bondmen', who believe, fear your Lord. There is good for those who have done good in this world. And Allah's earth is spacious. The steadfast shall only be fully rewarded without measure.
If we have a nose that we are unhappy with are we allowed to cosmetically change it to another? When it comes to a matter of altering the divine setup then 'yes' we are expected to be patient.
A true believer will ask Allah(SWT) for a child even if he is impudent and his wife barren. Allah (SWT) can provide this if he so Wills. Things are not always dealt with in this world by equal portion, but fairness is coming in the Hereafter, whilst in this life we hold back from breaking the rules, even when we have been given the ability to break them.
Peace to you too, psyah.
^ "motions of motherhood" -- labor and such are some of those. But what about feed, clothing, educating?
Peace Sahar02
Perhaps the proportions are not clear to you. If someone gives me £100 I can return that £100 ... however, according to Islam ONE contraction is comparable to many Hajj. Do you see that external feeding, (not breast) clothing and educating although noble are a drop compared to the term and labour?
Re: Surrogacy
^ Then the surrogate process if fuelled by wealth and finance ... it is an elitist activity and what good religion promotes elitism?
Only those parents who can afford to surrogate will do so ... what of those poor couples without children?
Peace Sahar02
Perhaps the proportions are not clear to you. If someone gives me £100 I can return that £100 ... however, according to Islam ONE contraction is comparable to many Hajj. Do you see that external feeding, (not breast) clothing and educating although noble are a drop compared to the term and labour?
Like I said, I do not think that surrogacy is preferred, or anything. Even if a mother who uses a surrogate is in someway owed less than a biological mother, does that make surrogacy unIslamic?
^ Then the surrogate process if fuelled by wealth and finance ... it is an elitist activity and what good religion promotes elitism?
Only those parents who can afford to surrogate will do so ... what of those poor couples without children?
This argument really doesn't work, and you seem intelligent, so I'm sure you know that. This is like saying that my wealth allows me to afford private school, a nice comfortable home, etc, leading to elitism, and therefore it is unIslamic.
I find that hard to believe.
As to those poor couples without children, I do think they should have options. Allowing for surrogacy at least allows for *some *infertile couples to be blessed.
This age old example perfectly fits on your logic. People buy knives to use as a kitchen utensil and others buy it to kill other people so we should ban making , selling and buying of all kinds of knives ?
What treatment of surrogate mothers has to do with it being a legitimate practice of allowing people to have kids if they cannot conceive ?
There are some who will treat the surrogate mother with respect. Also surrogate mothers normally agree to it for the love of family , out of their wish to help other fellow humans who are in suffering emotionally because they do not have kids of their own.
I know it's not the same issue of course, but this example reminds me of the Quranic telling of the creation of Adam and Eve, in which Allah SWT tells the Angels of the creation of mankind and His desire to put them on Earth. And how the Angels respond by describing all of the destruction mankind will cause, and Allah SWT responds by saying, "I know what you know not." I believe that's Sura 2, verse 30. It's one of my favorite passages to think about when I read the news; just because mankind was going to cause destruction doesn't mean their creation wasn't worthwhile. Just because something bad COULD/WOULD/DOES happen, doesn't mean something good couldn't/wouldn't/doesn't.
Like I said, I do not think that surrogacy is preferred, or anything. Even if a mother who uses a surrogate is in someway owed less than a biological mother, does that make surrogacy unIslamic?
No not at all ... Surrogacy is a misnoma ... The surrogate mother has greater Islamic right over the child than anyone else, but it is the secular law around surrogacy that makes the process unIslamic. Let the man marry the surrogate and all is fine. Look at what Ibrahim(AS) did when he did not have children from Hz. Sara he married Hz. Hajarah. Then both women have their rights as wives and mothers. As I said before they are both biological mothers, one is the egg donor the other is everything else.
This argument really doesn't work, and you seem intelligent, so I'm sure you know that. This is like saying that my wealth allows me to afford private school, a nice comfortable home, etc, leading to elitism, and therefore it is unIslamic. I find that hard to believe.
As to those poor couples without children, I do think they should have options. Allowing for surrogacy at least allows for *some *infertile couples to be blessed.
To send your own child to a good school is different from a religious order making it a precedence from which we are to act. The first is your choice based on what Allah(SWT) has given you, the latter is making the religion set the guidelines for what is clearly in favour of the affluent people.
I know it's not the same issue of course, but this example reminds me of the Quranic telling of the creation of Adam and Eve, in which Allah SWT tells the Angels of the creation of mankind and His desire to put them on Earth. And how the Angels respond by describing all of the destruction mankind will cause, and Allah SWT responds by saying, "I know what you know not." I believe that's Sura 2, verse 30. It's one of my favorite passages to think about when I read the news; just because mankind was going to cause destruction doesn't mean their creation wasn't worthwhile. Just because something bad COULD/WOULD/DOES happen, doesn't mean something good couldn't/wouldn't/doesn't.
Peace Sahar02
Off topic but ... angels are pure and do not sin so repentance and seeking forgiveness is something that we can do and this is loved by God. We are faulty and hence we should be humble and that is loved by Allah(SWT). We are disadvantaged that our natures take us towards evil, but when we strive against those urges (Jihad) ... Allah(SWT) loves that too.
This in addition to what you have said may be some wisdom why Allah(SWT) responded to the angels in that way.
Re: Surrogacy
Im not sure if i agree wht this concept or not.
I can understand if someone utilizes this option out of infertility.
But, what I don't understand is--someone doing this ONLY b/c they dont want to go through the "trouble" or burden of pregnanc and childbirth--they dont deserve to have kids in the first place.
nicely said
Thank you. Girly.
great debate ladies - I am enjoying reading the different point of views
Tamashbeen Haan.
Hareem, that all depends upon the country where the surrogacy is taking place, the laws that apply in that country, the contract (if any) that is written, signed and understood by all parties prior to the actual undertaking. In most cases in US, there is a very satisfactory ending to the process. I really dont know about other countries and their laws...but if it were nothing but heartache and bad endings...well then it wouldnt be happening as often yeah?
When I was infertile, my SIL bless her heart, told me that if it came down to it that she would bear the child of myself and hubby instead of getting a second wife for him. There have been many cases of a close family member carrying a child for a relative. Those surrogates who are not related at all and who undertake the process as a humanitarian thing...are almost always offered to be a lifelong part of the child's life if they want to be.
I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind. You do indeed have valid points. Yet it isnt all heartache and bad endings either. And I still have yet to see any kind of religious scripture which would make it forbidden. Like I've been saying, its all open to personal interpretation yeah?
According to written and country policy no one writes about the love. Yeah LOVE.
What if the carrier start loving after some time and want to keep the baby with her then what. Heck they didn't write in the paper if she would start loving that child during 9 months.
Heck no country write in their policy that if she Love baby more than the biological parents. Heck we all don't consider love in any relation depend on the country and religion Sorry except Religious or Islamic countries and Islam.
What my logic is. No love as living in this country where parents or country and religion have rules to kick out their kids after 18. Don't keep old or too old parent with them as they can't have privacy.
It will make complications like who is the father in this country it's common.
No it will create who is the mother ONE who delivered OR the egg donor.
Heck EWWWWWWWWWW about sister who wanted to have his brothers kid in her tummy. Lahol wala quwata Illah billah Il Aliul Azeem.
Is sister is my babie's mother or my wife. EWWWWWW.
Forget about the treatment with the bearer. At the time of marriage If a sister give birth to his brothers child then what if the cousins want to marry. Is that girl or boy sister gave birth that is his brothers baby is hers real sister or cousin. lol
Every one will become confused and it will make lots of complications.
Re: Surrogacy
One of my aunties couldn't have kids so her sister and husband had a baby for her and the aunt who couldn't have the kid + her husband were 'given' the baby to raise. The girl knows now she isn't her real mother but they are all really close and her 'cousins' (ie sisters) are all fine with it as well. Lucky it worked out, I always think when stuff like this happens in families things can get really messy.
Re: Surrogacy
Yeah mostly it gets messy.
One of my fathers friend gave his 1 son out of 3 sons to her sister as she didn't have any kid. When he become teenager and knew that who are his parents then he left her phuphi and came to his parents.
Now can you imagine how she felt after those many years she brought up him and now he left. Can anyone feel pain for that lady who brought up that boy like her own son.
Re: Surrogacy
these past few posts do not deal with the topic of the post which is surrogacy - ie., a child created by a married couple but carried to term in the womb of another. Giving up a child to a childless couple isnt surrogacy.
The talk about love for a child is applicable to surrogacy...and again, this issue is typically discussed and arranged prior to making the contract for surrogacy. Anyway, there is no country or religion that has rules to "kick out a child at age 18"...thats ridiculous! And so is the whole thing about kicking out the elders. But neither has anything to do with surrogacy and whether surrogacy is Islaamic or not...yeah?