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Originally posted by ahmadjee:
The Bukhari Hadiths points out three things:
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Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Ahmadjee, sorry! firstly you do not understand revelations well , second you do not understand hadiths well, that would be how I assess your current performance on this thread.
Fundamentally and Most of all , you do not understand your Creator.
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[list]# 1. As stated in many other Hadiths, AnHazoor (saw) did carry out Rajam. But he also used to pray facing towards Jerusalem at one time. But after the revelation in Quran to face towards Kabba, he never did ever face towards Jerusalem. Similarly, it is very hard for me to believe that after clear commandment in Quran, he would still carry out Rajam. Otherwise a Muslim can today face towards Jerusalem and start praying quoting certain Hadiths that are authentic but yet do not count.
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Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee, you use this kind of arguments when it suits you, but fail to use them when it does not. So no try this,
1) was there a revelation given to the Muslims in the Qur’an to face Jerusalem?
Read and contemplate
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2: 142 ** The fools among the people will say:** "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
143 Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced that ye might be witnesses over the nations and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; ** and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). ** Indeed it was (a change) momentous except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness Most Merciful
144 ** We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee.** Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. The people of the book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do
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Ibrahim says: In other words It was a trial, just like the trials of Sabbath for the Muslims who followed Prophet Musa (as) , when such trials is to be abrogated it will be mentioned, ** when it is to remain as is, no mention about it will be needed. **
The Main point here is that revelations ( a word from Allah (swt), for the continuation or abrogation of such trials will be found in the later revelations.
So now ask yourself:
1) Has there been a verse in the Qur’an abrogating or forbidding stoning or saying anything about it?
2) Is there a hadith where stoning has been STOPPED or denied for adultery?
Hence by the same argument you are trying to use to try and deny the TRUTH, you have only proved that you are being misguided in this issues.
** Remember trials and punishments for offences are two different things.
Trials for various generation can be altered or abrogated from prophet to prophet but punishments for offences will generally remain the same since all prophets were Muslims and all their followers were Muslims and sex offences are pretty much the same immaterial of creed.**
Thus in the case of adultery death has been ordained by Allah (swt) from the beginning because it destroys the society and one of the purpose of our life on this planet is to establish a just society.
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# 2. If you read the Hadiths again, notice what Hazrat Ash-Shaibani asked Abdullah bin Aufa "Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?". Which points out very clearly that he believed the Surah Al-Nur abrogates all previous rulings, and so he asked the question to clarify. If he had believed that the commandment from Torah still hold, he wouldn't have asked that question.
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Ibrahim says: that is your assumption based on your intention. Had you removed your boundary markers and tried not to put words into the mouths of the narrator and compiler, you would understand better.
Now try this: Imagine a person comes to you and asks this same question “Was Stoning before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?" what will be your answer? You see you will give the same answer.
but you might add a lot more to try and explain your position, right? and the person can ask you more questions to find out more, like, did you witness one or was stoning abrogated , right? And you don’t see all that recorded in the hadiths because, that was all that they transmitted.
Why?
Because
IF there had been a verse abrogating that punishment 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa (ra) would not say the Prophet (pbuh) carried out stoning for illegal sexual intercourse, he would have said stoning was NEVER done or it was done and Stopped after the Prophet (pbuh) gave the orders for it to be stopped. OR he would say after surah nur, the Prophet (pbuh) just flogged offenders.
Instead you are trying to conclude based on the next question and not based on the first question.
Meaning what ever revelations given were explained to the companions and they understood what was to be done and what was NOT to be done. No companion ever said stoning was forbidden as you and so called modern day rational thinkers are boldly concluding (abrogating Allah (swt) command by your conjectures)> In fact they, the companions whom Allah (swt) blessed were worried the verse concerning stoning was not recorded as part of the Qur’an which had been revealed to the Prophet (pbuh)
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# 3. Hazrat Abudullah bin 'Aufa did not disagree with him. He only honestly replied that he does not know. If he understood the Quranic Commandment as you do, then he would have stated that it doesn't matter if AnHazoor (saw) did it before the revelation of Surah Al-Nur or after, as the Rajam still holds. But he did not.
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Ibrahim says : ahmadjee, don’t try t spin this as I am concluding as such , on the contrary the chapters of revelations before the Qur’an and the actions of the Prophet (pbuh) and companions and the fact that no abrogation’s for stoning is mentioned in the Qur’an or any scripture, should be more than sufficient for Muslims, but you are on your own path, just as others have taken their own paths, thus arguing about sacred matters which cannot be changed by mankind.
The questioner can ask questions and the answer given, need only be a honest one! here your problem is that you have taken for granted these two people only talked about what got recorded and then went on their way. Which would be naïve . Hadiths are only excerpts providing glimpses of various situation in the past, they do not give complete picture all the time , if they did no one may be able to have memorize them due to the length a conversation can take.
This is the same with revelations, it was given over a period of 23 years and shortened as much as possible by Allah (swt), in order for it to be memorized as well as implemented STEP by STEP. What was approved at one time was fine tuned as situations changed or other situations cropped up. Hence whatever laws given that had been changed was with regards to evolving or circumstantial situations and when the community of believers had strengthen their resolve, firm laws were given for such situations.
** But adultery is not an evolving situation, adultery at the time of prophet Ibrahim (as) was the same at the time of Prophet Musa (as) and is the same till today**
Hence the punishment given by Allah (swt) need not be altered at anytime.
Why?
Because
1) adultery involves illegal sex between two persons who already have a partner to whom they have vowed in the presence of others to be faithful to each other.
2) adultery does not change in time, for punishment for that offence to change in time.
3) Allah (swt) does not make errors in judgment. Meaning when Allah (swt) said stone them to death at one time, it will remain as such for ever on this planet till the end of time.
Ibrahim says: Finally let me make this clear for all.
Ibrahim says : Let me convey as to how I will understand the events that led to different forms of punishments mentioned in the Qur’an which has nothing to do with adultery.
1) Confinement of guilty women .
This situation must have arise when the Muslims went out on expeditions for long durations and the men and women were separated from each other. Naturally some weak women being alone, may have taken to prostitution just like the men may have tried to do temporary marriages (* which was approved at one time) with the closest women available to them. This were old customs in some tribes, But the new Islamic community had to be fashioned and developed by stages and such lose nature were to be eradicated
Thus when they returned home, they would have come to hear about what may have taken place back at home in their absence and this would have been brought to the attention of the Prophet (pbuh) for which a revelation was given that such women IF found guilty should be confined to houses. Now this case is unique in the sense that men and women had needs and due to separation for long periods some lost control and took to prostitution and the family had no desire to apply the approved hadd for adultery or separate from each other , since there was mutual love for each other amongst them.
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4: 15 ** If any of your women are guilty of lewdness** take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify confine them to houses until death do claim them or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
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Ibrahim says: ** hence above applies to prostitution, lesbianism **
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4:16 ** If two men among you are guilty of lewdness punish them both.** If they repent and amend leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning Most Merciful.
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Ibrahim says: ** above only applies to sodomy and gay relationships. **
2) flogging.
This situation may have arise when unwed men and women had illicit sex and were caught , hence revelations were given to eradicate such evils from the Muslim society also ensuring that since their sentences should not involve death, such people can only marry amongst themselves or unbelievers only.
Thus the Qur’an records:-
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24: 2 ** The woman and the man guilty of zina flog each of them with a hundred stripes: ** let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment
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Ibrahim says : The above ayah only applies to fornicators ( meaning unwed man and women) even though zina can mean both fornications and adultery in English.
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24:3 ** Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. **
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Ibrahim says: : The above ayah further punishes them by forbiding such men /women to marry believers and what is their options in life are, after being found guilty of fornications,** thus ayah 24:2 and 3 is only with regards to unmarried people. **
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24: 4 And those who launch a charge against chaste women and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes: and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors
5 Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
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Ibrahim says ayah 24:4 and 5 , is with regards to those who accuse innocent women without evidence and what is to be done with them.
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24: 6 And for those who launch a charge against their spouses and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
7 And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
8 But it would avert the punishment from the wife if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that (her husband) is telling a lie;
9 And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
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Ibrahim says: ayah 24:6 to 9 is with regards to a husband or wife accusing the other without evidence and how to settle such issues.
** Thus surah 24 has NOTHING TO DO WITH ADULTERY, where a married man and woman may have left their own legal partners to have illicit sex .**
The punishments for such offences had been stoning to death from ancient times and it had been revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) but not recorded as part of the Qur’an, the hadiths confirms this.
Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** habit if not resisted soon becomes necessity **