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Originally posted by Stu: *
**Ohh, so you've only ever been critical of Bush? Could you refresh my memory on how you felt about the Clinton administration's policies on Israel and Iraq for instance?
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*
i can refresh your memory by all means. Please search under the gupshup search facility for any comments i may have made in the World Affairs Forum regarding a certain hag called "Albright". Happy reading.
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*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
*
Are you serious? That's absolutely not accurate and we both know it.
**
wow is that a crime? Am i going to be taken off and hauled to Guantanamo if i answer that question 'wrongly'?
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I'll try and get the transcript, but his WMD assertions were directly related to the Kay Report as I heard it. So yes, I am serious.
Hating Bush is most certainly not a crime. Lots of my best friends hate him. It's really more of a pathology in many cases-a pathology that impairs ones ability to correctly judge sometimes. I've never hated any democrats or Greens or Commusnists. I think I can strongly disagree where there are valid points of arguement, and then I would try to make a case with facts. The fact is Bush did not regurgitate any lies last night. You can argue that the administration gave import to some evidence leading up to the war. But last night I believe he only touched on the WMD evidence as it pertained to the Kay report.
^ nah, I think I'll just stick to my opinion that you resent the power the US has in the world out of your feelings of embarassment and humiliation for your social/religious group.
Some in this chamber, and in our country, did not support the liberation of Iraq. Objections to war often come from principled motives. But let us be candid about the consequences of leaving Saddam in power. We are seeking all the facts already the Kay Report identified dozens of weapons of mass destruction-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations. Had we failed to act, the dictator's weapons of mass destruction programs would continue to this day. Had we failed to act, Security Council resolutions on Iraq would have been revealed as empty threats, weakening the United Nations and encouraging defiance by dictators around the world. Iraq's torture chambers would still be filled with victims terrified and innocent. The killing fields of Iraq where hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children vanished into the sands would still be known only to the killers. For all who love freedom and peace, the world without Saddam Hussein's regime is a better and safer place.
Disprove the Kay Report referenced by Bushie in this part of the speech and then you can claim he regurgitated lies in the speech last night.
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*Originally posted by storch: *
**I'll try and get the transcript, but his WMD assertions were directly related to the Kay Report as I heard it. So yes, I am serious.
Hating Bush is most certainly not a crime. Lots of my best friends hate him. It's really more of a pathology in many cases-a pathology that impairs ones ability to correctly judge sometimes. I've never hated any democrats or Greens or Commusnists. I think I can strongly disagree where there are valid points of arguement, and then I would try to make a case with facts. The fact is Bush did not regurgitate any lies last night. You can argue that the administration gave import to some evidence leading up to the war. But last night I believe he only touched on the WMD evidence as it pertained to the Kay report.
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**
Alright, fair enough. That's your personal opinion. You are entitled to it.
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Originally posted by Stu: *
^ nah, I think I'll just stick to my opinion that you resent the power the US has in the world out of your **feelings of embarassment and humiliation for your social/religious group*.
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whoa. That's quite a tall claim isn't it? So i am embarassed about being Muslim? i am embarassed of my brown skin ? i am embarassed about being Pakistani? wow are you implying all this, because i certainly hope i am wrong. What exactly should i be 'embarassed and humiliated' about, Stu ? That my skin colour's darker than your's, that i'm responsible for every terrorist in the world ? Is that it? What exactly are you implying, please and thank you ?
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Originally posted by storch: *
*....the Kay Report identified dozens of weapons of mass destruction-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations. **
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"Significant" amounts of equipment have yet to be identified by the US team itself. Maybe someone should split off this part of our discussion because i am taking it into a WMD-related argument. That is the part that i sincerely fail to understand, Storch. That is the regurgitated lie.
BTW, my ride's here & i can't keep her waiting. i have to jet. I promise we will continue this discussion later.
I think those not questioning the policies are the ones who should be criticized I'm note sure where the wires got crossed. I did chuckle when Bush said “We have set Iraq free” I thought to myself, someone better let the Iraqi’s know that.
We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:
Compare that to the text of the speech. Looks more like plagiarizing than lying. I will give it to you on the “regurgitating” aspect now.
whoa. That’s quite a tall claim isn’t it?
So you’re proud about the status and reputation of the ummah in the world today Nadia? And btw, this has zero to do w/skin color. You have no clue what color my skin is.
you might want to take a look at this thread too (to read your own words):
http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134136
Billions of US tax dollars have been spent to sustain the war in Iraq diverting essential funding away from social, health and education schemes. Bush has failed miserably to defend his policies against iraq… this against the widespread knowledge that there is NO actual WMD in Iraq, there was NEVER a threat from the Iraqis as claimed by the Bush administration prior to the Iraq war and the US is now caught up in a Vietnam-like quagmire. To millions of ordinary Americans this is actually more about Bush’s State of Disunion.
Democrats slam ‘go-it-alone’ Bush](BBC NEWS | Americas | Democrats slam 'go-it-alone' Bush) BBC News 21 Jan 04
*Sen Kerry told US television station NBC: "I think there’s just two different worlds here - the world the president talks about and the world Americans are living in. *
Democrats lambast Bush speech](Democrats lambast Bush speech | World news | The Guardian) Guardian 21 Jan 04
Why’re y’all talking about Kennedy?? Rangel was asleep! :rotfl: :biggthumb
On WMD, this is all the comment necessary:
March 2003: Weapons of mass destruction.
June 2003: Weapons of mass destruction programs.
October 2003: Weapons of mass destruction-related programs.
January 2004: Weapons of mass destruction-related program activities.
Nuff said.
The rest of the speech was all couched in similarly careful wording.. not lies.. just borderline lies. Cute aint it?
But the parts about cutting the deficit in half in five yrs and accountability in education/NCLB can’t be spun into anything other than the pure BS it is. Then there were the moments where he took credit for things that either don’t exist or he doesn’t have the guts to publicly defend: his comments on energy, medical care, etc.. but non-statements can be defended. Nice. Oh, and don’t forget the fiscal fantasy that is his Social Security plan.. sure, privatizing could be good, but you’ve still gotta pay out during the transition phase. How?
Anyway, here’s an article from someone that usually rabidly defends W.. it seems there’s a lot of this going around lately 
:
Back Words
I always wondered why there were some Muslims who wanted the British to stay in power in India. After hearing your responses, I can see that "uncle Toms" exist across generations.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
I'll try and get the transcript, but his WMD assertions were directly related to the Kay Report as I heard it. So yes, I am serious.
Hating Bush is most certainly not a crime. Lots of my best friends hate him. It's really more of a pathology in many cases-a pathology that impairs ones ability to correctly judge sometimes. I've never hated any democrats or Greens or Commusnists. I think I can strongly disagree where there are valid points of arguement, and then I would try to make a case with facts. The fact is Bush did not regurgitate any lies last night. You can argue that the administration gave import to some evidence leading up to the war. But last night I believe he only touched on the WMD evidence as it pertained to the Kay report.
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On Jay Leno's Tonight Show:
In last year’s State of The Union, Bush said there was no doubt that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Last night, Bush said they had "weapons of mass destruction related program activities.” What’s he going to say next year - Iraq had weaponish thing-a-ma-jig whatcha-ma-callits.”
Someone wrote to the NY Times Editor: I cannot believe he did not mention the more than 500 service members killed since the invasion, the least he could have done was to pause for a moment of silence in their memory.
Another wrote, that he did not use the words “OBL” or “debt” or “environment”.
This thread still has a lot of room for serious discussion.
I did not see the speech, I had to go ice fishing.
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*Originally posted by TUMS: *
I always wondered why there were some Muslims who wanted the British to stay in power in India. After hearing your responses, I can see that "uncle Toms" exist across generations.
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You mus' be talkin' 'bout youself, sho' nuff, Uncle Tums.
By the way what the hell are you talking about?
Re: whoa. That's quite a tall claim isn't it?
i know you all missed me. i'm back.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Stu: *
**So you're proud about the status and reputation of the ummah in the world today Nadia? And btw, this has zero to do w/skin color. You have no clue what color my skin is.*
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With all due respect, what are you talking about Stu ? i was not aware that i should be cognizant that my shoulders bear the responsibility for the "status and reputation of the ummah in the world today". Did you decide you are in a sufficiently authoritarian position to give me that burden to bear, Stu ? Cuz last time i checked, i wasn't accusing you of bearing the responsibility for the "status and reputation" of perverted individuals who misuse their venerable positions in churches to molest young boys or girls. The "status and reputation of the ummah" has very little effect upon how i feel when it comes to my "religious group". If by some reasoning you are suggesting that the "ummah" is the reason i should feel 'embarassed or humiliated' of my "religious group", sorry - you're barking up the wrong tree. i am responsible for things that i am capable of, i am not responsible for a thousand different Mullahs residing from Samarkand to Kabul to Baghdad. In my own personal sphere, i can do what i can to combat hatred rantings regardless of whomever it's coming from. That doesn't in any way whatsoever make me feel 'embarassed or humiliated' - no more embarassed than you should personally feel when a McVeigh or a Koresh pops up.
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you might want to take a look at this thread too (to read your own words):
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er yes - as i stated above, i can do what i can in my own personal sphere to combat rantings of hatred. But i am not going to sit here and be informed, by an individual who does not even know me on a personal level, that i am experiencing 'feelings of embarassment and humiliation for [my] social/religious group'. Just like you do not want me to assume i know what skin colour you have, so i suggest you keep your personal assumptions about my beliefs, to yourself.
Thank you.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by storch: *
**We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations* during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN.
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errrrrrr so where is the evidence ? What are the names of the cities or rural areas where these "dozens" of WMD-related activities have been discovered? When is the UN being called in? Where are the pictures? Where are the detailed reports ?
And what's the difference between finding WMD arsenals, actual WMD arsenals that could be deployed in "45 minutes" [Blair] versus "WMD-related program activities"? A dozen countries in that region possess "WMD-related" equipment... semantics, semantics. Let's remember Powell's speech to the Security Council - he was very adamant that Iraq possessed mobile biological warfare units and all the other lies that were spouted. Where is all THAT ?
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i was not aware that i should be cognizant that my shoulders bear the responsibility for the "status and reputation of the ummah in the world today
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So you wouldn't say that your critiques on the US and it's mideast policies are done in defense of Islam?
I believe that you do feel compelled to defend Islam, and that part of your motivation stems from being ashamed at the status of the religion you hold so dear. Psychology 101.