Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
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The Bosnian's say so 7,000 muslims were not massacared in Srebrenica town. I believe them, while a Serb may not.
The Tutsi's say 800,000 of their people were killed in Rwanda. I believe them, while a Hutu would dispute that.
The Jews say 6 million of their people died in the Holocaust. I say maybe they did, maybe not as many died etc?
While a Serb or Hutu can question as much as he wants about the respective massacres their people committed against the Bosnian's and Tutsi's, nobody is allowed to question the holocaust of allegedly 6 million Jews.
There is peace today in Bosnia and Rwanda yet all the Jews are doing is waging war or wanting others to wage war. Cowards.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
It's a common perception, even among supporters of Israel, that the two are connected. Read today's Toronto Star, there is a letter to the editor that perpetuates this view.
What the Iranian president is doing, and rightly so, is asking the tough quesiton: what the hell does Israel and it's creation have to do with the ME?
The concept of a Arab-speaking Jewish homeland is a non-starter, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to find referenes to such a movement.
Zionism was entirely a European pheonomena which did have support among the more sophisticated Arab Jews.
The creation of Israel is tied to Zionism, and so to Europe. It was Zionist lobbying that had the Palestinian mandate be split between the recent Jewish settlers (several years before WWI, in 1914, there were only some 60k Jews and nearly a million Arabs - by 1922 there wre only ~90k Jews). Although Jews constituted a minority, their numbers were hardly significant enough to warrent special treatment. The Zionist lobby put Israel on the map. The Holocaust sealed the deal.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
The commitment of Israel being where it is today was made long before WWII. It's also true that the Holocaust quickly populated the state as did the exile of Jews from Arab lands.
What Ahmadinejad tries to do again and again is claim that Israel was created because of the Holocaust which simply flies in the face of history prior to WWII.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
What Ahmadinejad tries to do again and again is claim that Israel was created because of the Holocaust which simply flies in the face of history prior to WWII.
Exile of Jews from Arablands??? You missed Mars and Antarctica....
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
The Bosnian's say so 7,000 muslims were not massacared in Srebrenica town. I believe them, while a Serb may not.
The Jews say that 6 million were murdered during the holocaust. The germans have acknowledged this and so has every other country which particiapted in world war II or by soldiers and generals who liberated those camps.
I beleive them.
But to nazi loving and jew hating people like you, i guess for you to doubt the holocaust ever happened is not surprising
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
The reason its a common perception because the world war II ended in 1945 and Israel was created in 1948
Well since the british were de-colonizing their empire, every minority got its own homeland whether its muslims in south asia (pakistan), to arab hashemites in ME (jordan), to arab christians (lebanon) to arab jews (israel).
There was such a movement long ago. Jews were fighting to create a homeland since the ottoman empire fell in 1918.
And what about the creation of Pakistan, lebanon, jordan are those european phenomena as well?
Zionist lobby?
Please tell me which country was this lobby located in?
The all powerful zionist lobby is nothing more than a myth created by arabs to blame their incompetence and failing on the jews controlling america to give arabs a bloody nose.
Where the hell r you getting your facts from or you drumming it up in your sleep?
There were over 100,000 Jews in British mandate of Palestine and around 600,000 Arabs.
The ratio of jews to arabs in british mandate of palestine is similar to the ratio of muslims to hindus in british india before 1947.
So according to your hypothesis, pakistan should have never been created because muslims were too small in number to warrant creating a state called Pakistan.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran’s president Ahmadinejad
the british did not give every minority its own homeland. they created boundaries that would ensure instablity in the region. source: Gertrude Bell
it is silly to say that the british dealt equitably with the natives of the middle east, or for that matter, any other part of their empire. there is 70 years of sectarian violence and a war going on RIGHT NOW that directly overturns your claim that the british gave every minority its own homeland.
yes, we are aware of theodore hertzl and the world zionist congresses. we are also aware that hertzl had proposed many sites for his proposed jewish state including the island of cyprus and uganda.
are you actually trying to deny the existence of AIPAC…one of the most powerful lobbies in america? http://www.aipac.org/
conveniently, you fail to mention that Jews were being shipped in by the boatloads, fleeing persecution and the repercussions of WWII. you conveniently fail to mention that the British tried to blockade such attempts and were actually attacked by zionist forces. this is all widely known historical fact…conveniently omitted from your account.
the numbers are irrelevant. the point is, jews fleeing european persecution went to palestine. that was theodore herzl’s argument from the very beginning. because jews could not be accepted in european society, they needed a homeland. european persecution initiated the idea of israel and a european holocaust forced it into existence.
you cannot in any way disprove the fact that the arabs are paying for european crimes.
now, you can thank ahmedinejad for making it clear to you.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran’s president Ahmadinejad
Absolutely. Kurds dont have a homeland, Iraq is an artificial country but that doesnt mean that if some did not mean that if some minorities did not get a homeland that means that none got a homeland.
Israel for Arab Jews, Lebanon for Arab Christians, Jordan for Arab Hashemites, etc…
As for the turmoil in the middle east that is mostly due to the changing demogrpahics such as muslims becoming the majority in lebanon by the 1970’s, or the corrupt leadership installed by the West such as the Shah of Iran, King Farouk in Egypt, etc…
I am not saying that the west is perfect, but what I am saying Israel like other nations was created to represent the Jewish minority of the Middle East and saying since the Kurds never got a homeland and that some how negates that point is ridicilous.
Maybe he has. But when he proposed these ideas, Israel or the province of Palestine was under ottoman occupation. Once world War I ended, and those territories came under british occuptation, the idea of creating a homeland for the jewish minority in the middle east came to fruition.
I am not denying the existence of AIPAC. But the person who said that Israel was created in 1948 due the Zionist lobby is stupid. AIPAC wasnt around in 1948 and there was no jewish lobby anywhere in the world. Read the whole argument before you make such statements.
Of the boatloads that you mention, only 7,000 or so made it to Israel before it was created in 1948. In 1948, its population was only 100,000. In 1949, its population increased to 1 million. These include Jews who were expelled by Arab countries and some european jews who survived the holocaust.
They absolutely did. Which I assume would negate the fact that the Zionist lobby was behind the creation of Israel because if they couldn’t get the British to stop ships and sending the Jews back. The british were not attacked by Zionist forces, but by Jewish freedom fighters who were fighting to create their homeland. It wasn’t convenientally omitted from my account but rather common knowledge prevails me to omit such facts as I assume everyone should know them.
they did but only after the state of Israel was created in 1948. Israel’s population when it was created was only around 100,000. By 1949, it was over 1 million.
Absolutely. Just as the same as Muslims in South Asia cannot be accepted by the Hindus when the british leave, they needed a homeland.
Actually it was the de-colonization of the British empire which forced it upon them. Just as the British left British India which compelled the fears of muslims to create a state called Pakistan for muslims in India.
Holocaust and the creation of Israel are two different Issues. There was fighting going on in British Madate of Palestine since 1918. The British occupation of Palestine was not permanent, they had said after their administration period is over, the british will leave. The Christians got their homeland from the province of Syria called Lebanon, and Jews wanted their state called Israel.
I have just dis-proven every arsenal of argument you have thrown at me.
Good luck next time.
Just a tip, dont take comments from Ahmedinijad and try to throw them my way.
If it was me interviewing this maniac rather than this German Weakling, I would have ripped his arguments to shreds.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
Israel for Arab Jews, Lebanon for Arab Christians, Jordan for Arab Hashemites, etc....
to say israel was created for arab jews is absolutely ludicrous. can you please inform me of what sort of influence ARAB JEWS of all people had on the British that they could create their own state, while other ethnic groups such as the Kurds or shiites of iraq could not do the same?
arab jews were absolutely insignificant in the creation of israel. theodore herzl was a EUROPEAN JEW. the idea of israel began in EUROPE. ALL of the world zionist congresses took place in EUROPE. israel was conceived in EUROPE out of the frustration of EUROPEAN jews as a result of EUROPEAN persecution. even if you went to the most staunchest pro-israel historian, he would say the same thing.
NONE of the important steps that lead to the creation of Israel were initiated by arab jews, who were MINISCULE in number compared to the european jews, prior to WWII.
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As for the turmoil in the middle east that is mostly due to the changing demogrpahics such as muslims becoming the majority in lebanon by the 1970's, or the corrupt leadership installed by the West such as the Shah of Iran, King Farouk in Egypt, etc...
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please just say it straightforward and deal with the FACTS: a very significant portion of the political turmoil that has occurred in the middle east originated with the manipulative practices of colonial powers and intrusive western foreign policy. these are the FACTS.
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I am not saying that the west is perfect, but what I am saying Israel like other nations was created to represent the Jewish minority of the Middle East and saying since the Kurds never got a homeland and that some how negates that point is ridicilous.
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israel was not created because of the sephardim. it was created because of the ashkenazim. for you to say the desert arab jews could coerce the mighty british empire into giving them a homeland is ludicrous! israel was conceived by EUROPEAN JEWS.
similarly, if the kurds were given a homeland, it would have been called Kurdistan, because that particular region WOULD ALREADY HAVE HAD a majority of kurds. for you to gather up the diaspora of jews from all over the world and give them an already occupied land is IDIOTIC. you cannot in any way compare the kurds to the jews.
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I am not denying the existence of AIPAC. But the person who said that Israel was created in 1948 due the Zionist lobby is stupid. AIPAC wasnt around in 1948 and there was no jewish lobby anywhere in the world. Read the whole argument before you make such statements.
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there were jewish lobbies before 1948.....not in the AIPAC sense of the word, but there were absolutely proponents for the creation of israel before 1948. you yourself admitted that the preparation for the founding of israel began before WWII. what were the world zionist congresses? who was theodore herzl? these people were ZIONIST LOBBYISTS.
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Of the boatloads that you mention, only 7,000 or so made it to Israel before it was created in 1948. In 1948, its population was only 100,000. In 1949, its population increased to 1 million. These include Jews who were expelled by Arab countries and some european jews who survived the holocaust.
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are you going to deny that european jews absolutely DWARFED the sephardic jews in number before WWII? are you going to deny that the majority of israel TODAY is descended from ashkenazim? are you going to actually try to float the idea that DESERT ARAB JEWS defeated the armies of the countries that they had just emigrated from, during their "war of independance"?
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Holocaust and the creation of Israel are two different Issues.
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even if you said that to the most orthodox jew, even if you said that to that to the most staunch pro-israel historian, even if you said that to ariel sharon himself, you would get slapped in the face for making such a comment. israel and the holocaust are linked just as much as israel is linked to centuries of european jewish persecution.
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Just a tip, dont take comments from Ahmedinijad and try to throw them my way.
If it was me interviewing this maniac rather than this German Weakling, I would have ripped his arguments to shreds.
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you learned alot today because of ahmedinejad. you should thank ahmedinejad.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
The point is, it's hardly a valid critique of those who oppose Zionism.
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Well since the british were de-colonizing their empire, every minority got its own homeland whether its muslims in south asia (pakistan), to arab hashemites in ME (jordan), to arab christians (lebanon) to arab jews (israel).
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No, not every minority. The Kurds are a good example. The Arab Jews at the time of the Versailles conference were spread across Arab lands. The Arab Jews had no representation at the Versailles conference, which did have a European Zionist presence pleading their case.
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There was such a movement long ago. Jews were fighting to create a homeland since the ottoman empire fell in 1918.
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That was and is called Zionism.
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And what about the creation of Pakistan, lebanon, jordan are those european phenomena as well?
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What about them?
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Please tell me which country was this lobby located in?
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You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Zionism...the movement that ws at the time spear headed by Herzl...Weizmann was at the conference in 1919....any of this ring a bell?
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There were over 100,000 Jews in British mandate of Palestine and around 600,000 Arabs.
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Do you think an additional 20k make a difference? They were between 7-11% of the population between 1914-1922. Yet the Zionist slogan was "a land without people for a people without land"...the arrogance and imperalist overtones are just plain to see.
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The ratio of jews to arabs in british mandate of palestine is similar to the ratio of muslims to hindus in british india before 1947.
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If there were no predominately Muslim regions of significant size, or if Muslims only congregated in certain Urban centers, the idea of Pakistan would have been stillborn.
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
Kurds were denied a state of thier own because their boundaries traversed turkey and iran both key allies for UK. Iraqi shiites were not given a state of their own because UK needed Iraq for oil.
How is it ridicilous for Arab Jews to get a state of their own? Indian Muslims got their own state, arab christians got their own state, and then why is it so ridicilous for arab jews to get their own state.
Can you please tell me what influence did the Arab Christians had over the French or the Arab Hashemites had over the British to create their own state?
WRONG.
They were very signifant. Arab Jews helped the allies during world war II in defeating the Vichy troops in Syria and Lebanon. Arab Jews armed themselves and defended their people when they were attacked by Arab Muslims.
Correct
WRONG.
Herzl wanted to create the state of Jewish people some where in the world where the Jews can live in peace. The Ottoman empire fell in 1918 and british administration began. When the british began to leave, the Arab Jews living in British Mandate of Palestine wanted a state of their own much like Indian Muslims wanted a state called Pakistan. But as to the state of Israel being created in the Middle East that didnt happen until the Arab Jews who were oppressed during the Ottoman rule once freed by the British began to openly tout the notion of a Jewish state for Arab Jews.
WRONG again.
Some took place in South America and Africa and even in North America as well.
WRONG again.
A creation of a state of Jews was created in Europe, but Israel it self it was done in British Mandate of Palestine in 1918.
Like who?
Arab Jews numbered around 100,000. That number had stayed relatively steady since the 15th Century.
As for the European Jews, of the 7 million that were Europe, 6 million were killed, the remainder were either in England and around 500,000 had escaped Hitler's gas chambers.
True. Western Powers put up puppet regimes in egypt and iran and they got over thrown by zealots, they created artificial countries such as Iraq to curry their oil supplies....but they also created countries based on minority populations such as Jordan, Lebanon and Israel. You cannot deny that.
The mighty british empire. I guess then Gandhi, a "half naked fakir" a word coined by Winston Churchill played ZERO part in the independence of India?
Whats more ludicirous is the sheer imcompetence of your statements.
Just as Pakistan was created, just as Lebanon was created, just as Jordan was created, Israel was thus created. Learn to live with it.
The idea of a homeland of Jews was conceived by European Jews, but the notion of creating it in the middle east was conceived by Arab Jews who lived there.
This is a common Arab/Muslim myth........
Yes it probably would have been called Kurdistan, you are right on that part.
So what you are saying is that Pakistan could not have been created because the Hindus were the majority in British India. There were major areas in the British Mandate of Palestine which had a Jewish Majority.
The size of the state of Israel in 1948, was very small compared to it in 1949 after the war of 1948. Arabs attacked Israel in order to destroy it, Israel fought back and hence took over more land.
No palestinians were displaced when Israel was created in 1948. It was only after the arabs attacked and Israel fought back and Arabs started a propoganda that Jews were massacaring all arabs in sight and the key weapon shipment to Israel from the Czech Republic which allowed Israel to go on the offensive.
Israel was created on areas which had a Jewish majority and that is why no Palestinians were displaced when it was created. It was only after the Arabs attacked that the displacement began.
you absolutley can compare the jews to kurds. jews had been living in the land of Canaan (palestine and israel) for over 4000 years. they were displaced many times by the babylonians, egyptians, assaryians, persians, alexander the great, romans, byzantine empire, arabs, ottoman, and finally the british.
Jews were living there, the areas which had a jewish majority was given to Israel to create a state for the Jews just as Muslims in south asia were given a state to create Pakistan.
Jews from all over the world only entered Israel in 1949 after the war had ended before that it was only Arab Jews who were fighting.
and what lobbies are those?
and how powerful were those lobbies?
the jews couldnt even get FDR to fore go his quota on the number of Jews entering the USA from Europe each year which lead to millions being killed by the Germans.
My god, what a powerful lobby.
When the all mighty Jewish lobby couldnt even force the USA to send arms and equipment to the Jews fighting the Arabs in 1948 and when the Soviet Union had to send them arms.
My god, what a powerful lobby.
When USA gave Israel only a 2 week chance of survival.
My god, what a powerful lobby.
It began in 1918, when the Arab Jews were liberated and could practice their religion freely after the ottoman empire had become radicialized in the late 1800's. It was the Arab Jews who marshalled the idea of creating Israel on areas which had a Jewish majority in the British Mandate of Palestine.
It wasn't due to the Jewish lobby.
Infact most Jewish lobbies only started in the 1970's when the Arabs sided with the Soviet Union in the Cold War and the arab oil embargo after the 1973 war and numerous arab terrorist attacks. this caused the pro-israel lobby to gain sympathy in the west.
Herzl, was an idealist. Just like Marx. But it was Lenin who took his idea and created the Soviet Union and the Communist ideology. Saying that Herzl was a lobbyist is the most stupidest thing I have ever read.
No I am not. But that has nothing to do with it. It was the Arab Jews who fought for Israel, and after Israel was created, Jews from all over the world came and settled in Israel.
Of course not. After Arab Jews defeated the Arab Muslims, Jews from all over the world were welcomed into Israel. Look at Jordan, 70% of its population is Palestinian. So does that mean that the Hashemites had no part to play in its creation?
Actually, they didnt immigrate from there until after the War. During the War, Israel had a population of 100,000. Their army's size was 30,000 and they were fighting close to over 100,000 Arab Troops. Once the Arabs were defeated and they retreated, Arabs expelled their Jewish populations and over 1 million people came into Israel. Israel's population went from 100,000 in 1948 to over 1.1 million in 1949 thanks to the Arab expulsion of Jews from their countries and holocaust survivors who were now welcomed into Israel.
How do you know that? Have you tried it...
Please make statements which have some semblance in reality, otherwise you are wasting my time.
Israel and the holocaust are not linked. Israel was created as a homeland for the Arab Jews after the british were de-colonizing their empire much in the same way as Pakistan was created after the British left there.
Centuries of Jewish persecution lead to the idea of a Jewish state but the state of Israel was won over by Arab Jews who defended the idea of creating a Jewish state.
I hope you learned a lot today. Again I think you should thank ahmedinijad.
i will post passages from wikipedia stating the early history and pre-1948 developments in the history of israel. i want you to notice one thing about these passages and one thing only…THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF ARAB JEWS…NOT ONCE ARE ARAB JEWS MENTIONED.
yes, nowadays, world zionist organizations can take place anywhere. but during the zionist movements formative years, they took place in europe…NOT IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE SUPPOSEDLY DESERT ARAB JEWS WERE CALLING ALL THE SHOTS.
where are you getting this from? are you making this up as you go along? i really want to know, are you seriously making this up?
this is a poster created in 1930’s, encouraging EUROPEAN JEWS to migrate to palestine. EUROPEAN JEWS migrated to palestine to escape EUROPEAN persecution.
this is factually incorrect. european jews were immigrating into palestine since 1881, and european immigrant jews constituted the major portion of jews in israel at 1948. please see the link above. you are just making stuff up now.
where’s your source? i want to see a reputable source for this.
the palmach formed the foundation for the IDF. the palmach was made up of european immigrant jews. its leaders, including yitzhak rabin, moshe dayan, and yitzak sadeh, were all immigrants or descendants of earlier european immigrants. its all in the link provided above.
i have given you nothing but cold hard facts, backed up by reputable links. you have contributed nothing but baseless fantasies that even the most rabid, foaming at the mouth zionist could not produce…
Read the part where he helped allied forces in world war II.
"where are you getting this trash from? even in a coke-induced delirium i couldn’t even make this up. "
very mature words.
since you have totally lost the debate, I guess people like you will have dwell to using such language.
this kind of language is the sign of a defeatist.
Thats because Arab Jews were called Jews and Arab Muslims were called Arabs.
I have already stated that zionist conferences not only occured in europe, but in north america, south america, africa and other places.
Arab Jews had nothing to do with Zionism. The Arab Jews wanted their homeland just like Arab Christians wanted and got their homeland called Lebanon.
How many times do I have repeat something before you finally understand it?
I thought using wikipedia was a big No-No?
Anyways, European Jews did migrate to Palestine but their numbers were never that significant to begin with. It was the Arab Jews who fought and got their independence.
How desperate is your point of view that you have to rely on wikipedia?
Man this is so funny.
The Jewish population stayed relatively stable at 100,000 since the 1850’s.
the info you posted on wikipedia is wrong.
only after the war ended in 1948 did large number of jews came to israel from the holocaust survivors to the expelled arab population.
since anyone can edit the history of israel, even you, get me sources non-arab and non-muslim and non-left wing sources
why dont you wikipedia it?
ever heard of the armenian massacare where turks murdered 1.5 million armenian christians
I dont beleive crap from wikipedia:D
Anyone can go write stuff up.
Infact even you could have gone there and written up stuff and now posted it here:)
But anyways, Palmach was indeed made up of european immigrants but their numbers were very small.
also many arabs also migrated to british mandate of palestine after that area came under british posession.
but you gladly ommitted that part in your discussion.
but on the whole, the brunt of the fighting was done by Arab Jews to liberate their lands and create a state for Arab Jews.
All you have given me is nothing but smell horse ($H!t)
I know you tried but you have failed utterly to convince me otherwise
Also, this thread about the Palestinians paying the price for the Holocaust has failed.
Even if I do I beleive you which I dont…
So what you are saying even before the holocaust started, European Jews came in massive numbers and settled in british mandate of palestine…
so that negates the argument put forth by ahmedinijad in which palestinians are paying the price of hitler
so If I agree with you, that means ahmedinjad is wrong…
Re: SPIEGEL Interview with Iran's president Ahmadinejad
*Anymore discussion going towards concept/creation of Israel will be deleted and guppie warned. Please refer to tons of other threads questioning creation of Israel. No more digression will be permitted! *
