Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Saying that I love Urdu but it is not my priority and I would rather have my kids learn other language is like,…

…I love you but rather have relationship with or marry someone else.

Just a thought.

**‘Pretending’ love is not a good thing to do.

One should not be so political that it becomes a lie.

**

Besides, French and other labguages are just advertised to be romantic. Maybe so, but not itself alone.

ANY language, including Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Saraiki, Pushto languages of Pakistan can be considered romantic and Urdu certainly is a romantic language.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

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Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Not really, priorities are rooted in necessity or usefulness rather than personal preference (as is the case in personal relationships). For example, a person living in an area where the predominant language is French (as is the case in Quebec where French is one of the two official languages), one MUST be able to speak and write fluent French in order to function and have an advantage, making it a necessity. In that situation, Urdu would just be a “nice to to have,” rather than a necessity and hence, not a priority.

Personally, I believe that learning any language is quite beneficial and widens one’s horizons. It’s great that some people have the time and resources available to be able to learn and are able to do so. Unfortunately though, not everyone does and as a result, some people must prioritise some things over others. It’s rather unfair for those who do have the time and opportunity to learn to negatively judge those who do not.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Then say its nice to have, not " I love Urdu". Hope you get the message.

I am not going to go off tract, but just for those who can understand:

**Doing something out of necessity is not love.

And more importantly, doing something beyond necessity shows love.

**People do not have to claim they love Urdu…or any of their parental language or any of their heritage.

Just say they like it and don’t think it is important enough for them to follow or let any of their children to follow…and **be done with.
**
Why pretend to look good in front of others and not do something about it or plan for it… is what I said above.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

diwana -

Diwanon jaisi batein karte ho :slight_smile:

Anyway -

If I was concerned about how I looked to you I would not be saying the things I do. I’d be saying things you wanted to hear like “oh no…i’ll just die if i don’t teach my kids Urdu”. taliyan, taliyan But no, I didn’t say that. In fact, not even close.

Pretending to love Urdu…now tell me why I would feel the need to pretend to someone? Anyone? Will you jump out of my laptop if I say I don’t?

Is there a reason you cannot believe that I don’t feel its a priority? Why is that so hard to fathom? A neutral ground where one doesn’t feel animosity nor a burning desire for something…is that so hard to believe? It has to be one or the other?

No, it doesn’t. Urdu is a beautiful language. You may believe French and Italian are “advertised” to be more romantic but its not an absolute truth…just your opinion. Biased opinion to be precise. Lots of people find all of these languages romantic and its perfectly okay for them to think so.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Maybe other people’s experience is different. But I’ve observed that Hispanic immigrants have a strong pride in their language/culture. They also know that they have to assimilate in the US and in order to do so, they will learn English amongst other things. And if they plan to remain in the US…they too…must be aware that there’s a greater chance of the language/culture becoming diluted. However I don’t see them using this reason to not make an effort to teach Spanish or to dismiss it or to see it as less of a priority. What I mean is that I don’t see them saying…“Yeah well culture/language will become diluted and our kids and their kids and their kids just won’t have that strong of a connection to culture that we did, so we’re not that concerned with truing to maintain it.” Nor do I detect a fear in them that oh noes my kid will flounder or struggle. On the contrary, they have strong pride…it’s not just limited to cuisine and annual traditions…I noticed this when I was in school, among my Hispanic friends, later on in students and their parents. They don’t think sooo far down the road as to whether their great-great-grandkids will speak it or not. Rather it’s more like the thought…“I’m gonna focus on my own kids and not so much on future descendants as that’s not an immediate concern…and I’m gonna try my best to give them an understanding of their roots cuz there is more to the world and to life than just the dominant or macroculture that we have to assimilate into.” You can take two worlds with you.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I would just say one word to define attitude of those people ‘chaska’

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Its about priorities.

My priorities are different. Not everyone will want the same thing for their kids.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

There are the parents who don’t know how to speak Urdu…so I can understand the limitation.

Then there are the parents that speak Urdu to one another, but don’t make an active effort to encourage their kids to learn, though they’re not vehemently against it.

Then there are the parents who speak Urdu to one another but have made a firm decision that their kids are not to learn and will even say/admit that they don’t want their kids learning it. I don’t quite get this group. You are okay with your kids witnessing a shadi that takes place once a year or every few years and the traditions that are part of it…you are okay with your kids wearing ethnic clothes once-twice a year for Eid and weddings…you’re okay with your kids hearing Desi music at some event or the other. BUT…you don’t want your kids to pick up the language …that they are exposed to in the home on a daily basis. WTH…that doesn’t make sense. In that case Mom and Dad should speak only in English to one another and especially in front of the kids so they understand that Urdu will be treated in the same way as other aspects of culture (clothes, traditions, etc) …where you are exposed to it only occasionally and don’t have to think about until they roll around. That would be more consistent with beliefs about where it stands on the priority scale.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Reha: Paaglon Jaisi Baatein Karti Ho. :slight_smile:

I am very confident I have never posted without having something reasonable to back it up or be able to defend myself. Even when joked, I have been careful so it is not taken as a comment merely in jest.


All I said is that those who claim to say “I love Urdu” and continue to say its just not my priority are trying to fool others.

You said that and have not proven so far that you love Urdu.

It really does not matter if you do or not, fine.

But it does matter if you say something, but keep saying exactly opposite repeatedly.

As to my opinion about French being biased, I already said it maybe so, but to say a language is romantic is absolutely wrong and those who believe french is romantic are the people who are biased and at least fooled by false advertisement.

Why?

Language is not romantic. Thoughts are.

Romantic thoughts can be expressed in any language and any of the languages can and has expressed romantic thoughts.

Just because someone cannot understand any particular language does not mean that language is not romantic.

Hope I taught you something and still you did not feel my post as something out of textbook. :slight_smile:

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Diwana no need to get nasty even though I know its tempting for you when it comes to me. :slight_smile:

Tell me why I’d have to prove it if I felt it? Please make sure you answer this question of mine. Should I write it out in big, red, bold letters with hearts?

Now about my kids…I love yakhni pulao…does that mean I want to teach my kids how to make it? Why? I love it. They don’t have to. If they do, great. If not, no biggie. I have plans for them anyway.

As for romance, well…that is not something that can be easily argued out. Simply due to the fact that romance and what constitutes romance differs for everyone.

Hope you understand that opinions are not facts. They are opinions.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

If you love yakhni pulao…you will naturally “want/desire” to not only expose your kids to the dish, but also teach them how to make it. Now if your kids don’t like yakhni pulao and have no desire to learn how to make it, that’s another issue. But they will express that opinion with greater certainty when they’re more mature and their tastes have become decidedly developed. A baby/toddler might not like fruits n veggies…because he/she has not quite developed their tastes and is not knowledgable/mature enough to know otherwise. Does that mean you give up on fruits n veggies permanently? No. Rarely will you find an adult resenting his parents for teaching him a language…whatever it may be. You will never hear “Gosh why’d ya guys have to teach me English? Why didjya make that effort? Whydjya take advantage of my innocence?” Kids change/develop with time; there are many things (apart from language) that they have to be exposed to and taught despite struggling initially and along the way.

^That said, Kids can and do adapt to things/situations. Boils down to whether the parent really wants to make the effort or not. If not…then they don’t “love” it all that much. They could “like” it but it’s not love. You love yakhni pulao and so you seek it out…you make it a part of your life. You obviously won’t eat it everyday for health reasons…but you won’t dismiss or exclude it entirely. Now overdoing a food that you love can be damaging…but food/language are not on the same level and it’s not reasonable to compare language to food. It’s not the best analogy. However it emphasizes the point that Ghost made earlier…if there are no disadvantages to learning Urdu…then why not? And if you again answer with “It’s not a priority”…then it means it’s not so loved.

Language acquisition will always be a challenge/struggle in some form or the other …to some extent or the other…regardless of the language itself because it’s a skill that develops with time as you’re exposed to new words, grammatical rules, content, etc. It doesn’t matter if it’s English, or French, or Spanish, etc. Albeit a language that you’re not exposed to regularly or within an important context such as family will be harder to pick up, but not impossible. And if the language is spoken regularly by parents in the home, acquisition should be easier and requires little effort.

Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

^ It actually requires A LOT of effort. I wish it was as easy as you made it sound. For the people who grew up in the west or a country where Urdu and Arabic are not the national languages, how hard were they to learn for you?

Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Gosh, sorry this turned out to be so long, I am just tuning in. My apologies I tried to keep it simple.

For me, both Arabic and Urdu were VERY hard. My parents were fresh immigrants from the 80s and only spoke to us in Urdu. That however was NOT ENOUGH for us to get a solid grasp of it. I spoke it as a child but struggled with it a lot. Why? Because there were so many different elements of language and culture being thrown at me from all different directions and yes I DID become confused. Urdu and Arabic almost go together because as a Pakistani your learning one and as a muslim your learning another. You spend most hours of your day at school learning about the complicated history of your local nation and the culture of the country you live in. Everything you learn is structured and systematic in English. Then you go home and your exposed to it in a different way, alongside Urdu which you never really learn in the same way as English. Pakistani culture and religion become “YOU HAVE to do it because you are a Pakistani and a Muslim”, and not only that for me, “you are a girl in Islam born into a Pakistani family and with that comes great responsibility.” Those were just some of the arguments used by my parents to try and convince me WHY my culture was important. I always realized it WAS important but to put it into action was much more difficult on top of everything else that was around me. As babies we begin to learn our abc’s and 1,2,3s ALL in English. It’s the language we are taught to read and write in first or most exposed to through books and TV and radio and posters and news and movies and print…NOT urdu. At home you are exposed to it further as studies and homework becomes our lives. The only urdu most learn is what is enough to casually converse with in our home lives. There were attempts to teach Urdu and Arabic along the way through Sunday school but those systems were never as developed as our other educational systems and therefore I never picked it up as easily as I did English. My parents definitely tried but with the other obligatory expectations, it got pushed to the back burner and they were never as effective because they weren’t teachers. It just did. Sorry for those who don’t understand that and therefore not accept this as a valid point.

When you grow up in a multicultural society learning about a bunch of different languages and cultures at once, some stick out and others don’t. If Urdu was as important for me to learn in the present then so should have been Cantonese, Mandarin, French (which was another national language), German, Spanish, Polish, Egyptian, Turkish and so on and so forth. There were bouts of exposure to all of these but NEVER properly taught in a systematic way. Sometimes it takes more than your parents just speaking at home to learn a language. I think with our generation that’s quite a proven fact otherwise we would all equally be fluent as most of our parents were new immigrants from Pakistan. For those of you who dont understand why it was so hard to learn and therefore think we are hiding behind an excuse well quite frankly you never will understand because everything you learned from the very beginning has been in your national language and its all you know. Your parents never worried if you would grasp their culture, not only do we have to learn it, we have to learn to explain it and defend it in a tolerant way. Culture and Islam go hand in hand and is a way of normal life in Pakistan. All of the history and literature you learn with is blended well into Urdu and then some English. It’s never about learning one or the other because you don’t have to. Everything is taken care of for you in Urdu and mostly that. How many Pakistanis have horrible English? (with many examples in this forum), a bunch. There’s only one culture to learn and there is no doubt about where you come from.

It’s much more difficult for people born abroad to find their identities and for some its their parents culture and for others it’s the culture of the land we were born into. It’s just different for different people because again like Reha has tried to explain a few times, it boils down to your own priorities. Its hard to teach your children to balance your ancestral culture with religion all the while being mindful and respectful to the country we now live in. With all of that being said, my Urdu is the best out of all my cousins who grew up here, people get surprised with it. However I have struggled to find the balance and still do into my married life. When I think back to the things I wish could have been done differently so I could have had an easier time learning and balancing my culture with Western culture and one of those is not forcing my children to learn Urdu. If they would like to, that’s great, I will aid in that anyway I can to feed their interest but for me that is why it is not a priority. → Because its much easier said than done in a society where everything and everyone is shoving their beliefs down your throat about something other than Islam and Pakistani culture.. Your priority is to make sure to instil and enforce good character in rulings with Islam and there that is why language goes to the back. Thinking back to how I can hopefully do it effectively for my children (instilling religion and culture in a relatable way to the time and place we live in) where my children have some better clarity than I did, Urdu is just not on top of that list because it didn’t serve as much purpose growing up as the other things did. Not to say its NOT on the list, but it won’t be the foundation of my teachings.

From my personal experience, other than reading the Quran in Arabic, everything even about Islam was taught at the masjid in Urdu for the longest time. And again it was so hard to relate it back to my life even if I wanted to. Only until they started teaching us English did religion really start to speak to me and pull me towards learning more because I never fully understood it as it was never taught in an applicable way. I came from a small town so everything at the Masjid was in Urdu and it was never relatable to our lives. That is something I do not wish for my children to go through and that is the reason why instilling Urdu won’t be on top of the life’s learning list.

They are prideful, it’s great. Their culture can be really fun but you know why it is easier for them to do? In my opinion and you may disagree ..because their religion still matches up with that of the mainstream Christian/Catholic beliefs in American culture. They don’t have restrictions and teachings of Islam like we as American Pakistani Muslims do. Did you consider that?

Their culture is about music and food and sex, similar to American culture. Religion does not interfere with their teachings of culture. Just like religion and culture don’t interfere with each other in American culture. However for us Muslims it is so much more different. They are considered different because of the colour of their skin. We are considered different because of not only the colour of our skin but because of our beliefs which has a lot of bad stigma attached to it. Everyone loves learning about culture, in school you are often asked about the kinds of foods and clothes that come from our culture. Rarely are you encouraged to spread your beliefs and as a kid growing up in a bunch of different environments you can understand why someone’s culture and belief could become associated with fear and embarrassment. People are not as receiving to our culture which also comes along with our religious beliefs and that’s when things get messy because not only are we different, we are REALLY different and that’s hard to explain to people who know nothing about Islam and Pakistan and don’t even want to. Nor has Urdu become a national language like Spanish has.

Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I am trying to imagine Mexican culture being exposed to Pakistanis in Pakistan. How well would Mexicans adapt in Pakistan? You can only imagine the kind of hardships they would endure trying to assimilate their culture into a pakistani lifestyle. Well I think that is a relatable example of Pakistanis trying to blend their lives with the Western lifestyle. Isn’t it quite difficult? So that’s where things become prioritized where learning a language that may have limited uses in a practical sense just isn’t at the top of ones list. How many 2nd or third generation Hindus or Chinese Asians living in Pakistan done? Have they been successfully able to preserve their language and culture over there?

Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

In a second scenario in my life, I have the example of how hard it is to bring your culture with you everywhere you go. ..My husbands grandmother is Iraqi. 100% born and bred Arab blood and lineage who spoke Arabic and Farsi fluently. It was so so beautiful. She married my grandfather-in law who was an Indian later became Pakistani living in Iraq at the time. She moved to Pakistan with him after the split and unfortunately was never able to reunite with her family ever again because of the Saddam era and all that. After she came to Pakistan with her babies, she was taught Urdu and a bit of Punjabi. Punjabi never stuck but Urdu she learned in order for her to communicate and raise her children in Pakistan. That she did. However, the most Arabic my FIL and his siblings were able to learn was in reference to Quranic Arabic and a few sentences here and there. They learnt snippets along the way about where their mother was from but they were raised more so with Pakistani culture because thats where they were living. As time went on, my grandmother in law adjusted to Pakistani life so well that she completely stopped speaking Arabic and Farsi. UNFORTUNATELY, there was no use for Arabic in Karachi. How could there be? She was the only Arab there. With time, she adapted a second culture which became her lifestyle and live hood. I am sure if she could have, she would have loved to preserve some of what she could but it wasn’t that easy. In those times even more so, I mean she wasn’t really educated, and married as a very young girl. The things she did pass down to her children are only alive in concept not in practice because the opportunity to practice was just not there and therefore none of it was then passed down to the grandchildren (my husband.) That’s how things have changed. I would love for my children to also learn about Iraqi culture as it relates to our family but it will not be on the priority list as it is just not relevant in our lifestyle today. Unfortunately, but that’s what it is.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Thanks Muqa and Le, for explaining on behalf of me.

I can uderstand that its not always in your own control to learn but reacting like offended by the simple notion is unjust. That is what I implied in my post.
Just look at the reaction of some people before I posted.
It is sad that some Pakistanis got offended and by an ordinary notion of ‘we Pakistanis should learn Urdu or a local language’ and then reacted aggressively.

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

You are giving a very basic example, as you know what media is telling you even though that is subject to media’s likes and dislikes. I am talking about **knowing a country **, not getting the news from remote. And to know a country you have to speak with average people in a language they speak and understand. Pakistan is special case where one or two percent would know English and you cannot guess or generalize anything about average Pakistanis.

I said first-hand experience, connection with people and understanding the feeling of common people. Maybe you don’t find any difference between these two but if you comment on n matter in Syria, not necessarily on war and another person knowing local language and have been interacting with local people comment on the same matter, whose opinion will get more value?

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

It is also sad that one Pakistani feels they should pick on another Pakistani because of something so silly as fluency of a language belonging to a country they don’t even live in.