Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
CB, we don’t have animosity towards it.. just that some of us don’t believe in making it a priority..
I don’t think Reha said she had anything against it, just that there were more important things out there she’d like her kids to know first..
Kids are like sponges and will likely pick up the language from hearing it around them anyway and that’s usually more than enough to get by.. I can’t read and write it and at nearly half way thru my life there hasn’t been a single time where I’ve needed to.. or even felt as tho I’d missed out in any way.. Most ppl I know who can’t read and write it feel the same..
I don’t know why my comments are being deliberately misunderstood. Maybe because it’ll make for a spicier argument.
I love Urdu language. Read this and repeat it to yourselves. It’s beautiful. I also love French and Italian. They are romantic.
Just because I don’t see the need to learn these languages doesn’t mean I hate them or have animosity towards them. They’re just not important. That’s all.
Why is it being taken as if I hate Urdu? Lol.
Do I think I want to make an effort to teach my kids Urdu? I’ve got nothing against it but it isn’t on my bucket list. Sorry if that bothers people but that’s what it is.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Lack of Urdu skills does not seem like that big of a problem if you’re not residing in Pakistan. Now if someone who grew up in Pakistan who had the privilege of going to a decent school claimed said they couldn’t read Urdu, I’d be mad.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
It is absolutely true that continued influx of immigrants plays an important role of keeping a language alive in their countries of immigration.
However, just like continued filling of bucket drop by drop can keep the level of water at certain level, there has to be some water in the bucket prior to new drop of water.
Efforts by Punjabi speaking mainly Sikh over a hundred years brought the language to a very comparative level in Canada.
I have met even third generation individuals from various countries, they not only speak their languages but also have ability to write and read.
One can rightly say with time attrition develops, but if there is interest and efforts, the culture and language can stay alive.
Point to note: Urdu did not really progress in subcontinent because of Urdu speaking immigrants to subcontinent. it was not so common first but continued on MOSTLY because of growth of native Urdu speaking population.
It is all fine to say other native languages take precedence over Urdu by many Pakistanis, but still, as a communication tool, Urdu remains important in Pakistan. If all native language speaking people of Pakistan develop the rigid attitude, then one can imagine a whole lot of problems in Pakistan.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Who is struggling, Reha? Are you? Cuz I’m not. I am able to be a part of both cultures without getting confused. I’ve seen several examples of parents who have taught their kids Urdu and there’s no confusion. They don’t jumble the languages while speaking…do you? They can adjust their interactions and thought processes according to the environment that they are in. It’s not hard. Have more faith in the capabilities of children. You see it pressuring, but it can also be seen as underestimation.
You have met some 3rd gen people and that informs your opinion. The overall stats, studies and linguistic research informs mine. as I said, how many of us speak Persian, Arabic or Turkish etc. Isn’t that part of the heritage? Somewhere along the way, the language of the land took over and that of ancestors disappeared slowly. A few generations back, educated people still learnt Farsi /Persian and then it just went away.
The canada stats really don’t go into how much of that is gen 3 and beyond.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Nowhere I have mentioned that meeting individuals of third generation makes any of my opinion whatsoever.
What I have is the question from very beginning why is that there are people who cannot feel related to their heritage and along the way gave examples of those who do.
That is why I earlier mentioned “samjho Sub Kuch, Na samjho Kuch Bhi Nahin”.
All it means that the interest either from the parent(s)/Guardian(s) or from their offsprings are required for the language to flourish.
I even concurred that continued immigration is one factor which has kept several languages alive where their language has not been present. And that has to some extent offset the attrition rate. (Water bucket analogy).
In regards to Urdu: it was not really a native language from beginning. Yes persians, Turks, Arabs lost their languages to some extent but one reason why Urdu came to being and continued is their combined contribution. They did not really completely adapt native language(s) of Indian subcontinent.
Persian was lost because of political move by British and their rule for so long. (One big factor)
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
RV -
I have no issue with the language being taught as a side project…sure. But it is not a priority. It just isn’t and it never will be. I don’t underestimate my kids…I want something else for them. If I choose not to teach them Japanese its not because I don’t think they can do it. Its because I find other subjects more important and prefer devoting my time to those matters. I don’t want them to be immersed in desi culture…I want them to understand their faith first and foremost and I need for that to be their identity.
I want them to be global citizens…with ehsaas for their fellow Muslims. With NO regard for race or ethnicity.
Pakistan is a country. A nation. A part of the world…it isn’t the entire world and the world doesn’t begin and end there. There are all kinds of Muslims out there and they all pray in the same language: Arabic.
I am 1st generation American Pakistani in the US. My kids will be 2nd generation American Pakistanis in the US. Slowly with time, this connection will diminish. The language will get diluted and eventually we may or may not really even speak it because of our relationship becoming weaker and weaker with the actual country of Pakistan where Urdu is predominant (which I have not set foot in for over 20 years). This is inevitable and I’d rather not dwell on it.
My Urdu is pretty damn good…no one can tell I was born here when I talk. I usually get asked “aap Pakistan se kab ayeen” and when I tell them I didn’t the next sentence is “aray apki Urdu to bari saaf hai”. Even so, I have come across people who don’t accept you as a Pakistani because they feel you didn’t live in Pak, weren’t born there, you have no ties to it so you’re not really Pakistani. So WHYYYY should I try to be accepted and push my kids into that same rut? WHY? Who says I have to? There are posts on this very forum by our own members that say people like me have no right to talk about Pakistani affairs because my birth certificate is blue. Those same people will be the ones criticizing my kids for not speaking the language of a land they have no right to comment on?
No thank you.
My mission is for my kids to learn who they are through the eyes of the only one that matters: their Allah.
And Allah does not recognize any country, race or ethnicity.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
**I don’t want them to learn customs. I want them to learn Islamic etiquette. Respect. Compassion for their fellow human beings. Customs are useless to me. They are fun…so are BBQs and making kites. I don’t think I’ll be too upset if they don’t know about joota churai or doodh pilai. Again, I am not against these things…I just don’t see myself emphasizing them.
**
But why is it necessary I teach them this?
Why don’t you explain yourself? Why don’t you tell me why you equate religion with culture? Why do people like you believe that being Pakistani is the equivalent to being a Muslim? As if the gates of heaven are automatically going to open up once you wave the green and white flag. Speaking Urdu seems to be your passport into the pearly gates…you might want to check with someone about that.
To the posters here:
Some posters really need to understand the ties a lot of you have with Pakistan are MUCH stronger than myself. Its unfathomable for many…to read what I am saying. Sounds almost blasphemous doesn’t it? Who is she to say Urdu is not important? Its important to someone who has strong memories, ties, relatives living there, a real solid bond, etc. But for someone like me…Pakistan is like a distant dream…somewhere I visited once or twice as a child during summer vacation and that was it. Many of us don’t have that “home” like connection with it and that is okay.
I have learned so much from this forum about our culture and for that I am really grateful. Yes, I value it. My parents were born there and raised in Pak. I speak Urdu. I can cook Pakistani food. But I cannot deny that my kids might not even have those vague memories that I have. So what will I teach them? One of my jobs will be give them a sense of identity right? And that will come from their faith.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
That’s not an answer to my question which basically looks as if you came up with your own conclusions.
Urdu will not DISadvantage them. But I still haven’t seen a single post proving how crucial it is for 2nd generation American Pakistanis to know Urdu fluently.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
^ I see your point, but one could make the same argument regarding Arabic. Islam should be universal, hence, there is no reason to learn to read it in Arabic, when it is the meaning of the message that’s important, which should be perfectly valid in English. Why bother to learn Arabic when there are certainly Arabs who consider themselves to be the true Muslims, the caretakers of Islams holiest sites? Because of cultural congruence. Reading the Quran and praying in the language of the earliest Muslims is spiritually fulfilling.
Similarly, it is likely, given the tendency of Desi Muslims to marry within the community, that descendants of immigrants will always be Pakistani and will hold values from Pakistan. They’ll exist in the customs within the family, in the food they eat, the clothes they wear, and yes, even in the religion they may choose to follow. Urdu is a part of that, while not necessary, it helps. Ignoring all that, it is advantageous for a child to learn another language. You ask the advantage of teaching Urdu? I’d ask: **what’s the disadvantage of teaching Urdu? **Especially since it requires little effort. Speaking it at home with parents is literally all it takes.
So yes, Urdu is not crucial. Neither, one could argue, is Arabic. It’s just nice to know.
My own reasoning is that I would like to keep ties with Pakistan because I would like to move back there if the situation improves. I would like to be part of the change.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
I would consider Arabic to be important because it is the language the Qur’an is written in. Its the language we pray in. I find when I know the meaning of what I am saying, I tend to pay more attention to my words and feel them more. But that’s just me and what I want to see in my kids.
I guess this brings us to another topic…would it matter to people if their child married a non-Pakistani Muslim? To me, it would not and maybe that’s another reason I don’t really feel the need to push Urdu. I’d want to make sure whoever my child married was Muslim, responsible and a good match. But their ethnicity would not matter.
Like I said earlier in my posts that my kids will probably pick up conversational Urdu because of me. They might. If they want to learn more, I will certainly not stop them. But it will not interfere with what I have planned for them.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
^I can understand why learning Arabic to understand the Quran is encouraged. The Arabic language in the Quran is so intricate and complex that the English doesn’t always adequately translate the words. I didn’t realize this myself until I started watching tafsir lectures. If one doesn’t want to or cannot learn Arabic, then I feel that you’ll need more than just the translation to get a thorough understand; you’ll need tafsir/commentary that explains the historical background of the surahs, the context, and the intricasies/analysis of the language. However…I’m guessing …that fluent speakers of Arabic and even those with a grasp of classical Arabic…will still require tafsir for background info and a more thorough understanding. An example that comes to mind is that fluent speakers of English such as us…will still struggle a bit in understanding really old English, it requires supplementation.
I like that you brought up the last point in your second para because it’s what has been in my mind and I feel I couldn’t explain it as clearly in my own posts. It requires little effort, much less effort than learning Spanish because you are exposed to it on a daily basis from your parents. As for learning Spanish…some schools may start that earlier, but generally I have seen that it’s offered at the secondary level (high schools, etc). Children are exposed to Urdu in their homes long before they get to that stage. One’s career is important, but that usually isn’t embarked upon until you get to college and after completing it. Again, kids are exposed to Urdu loooooooong before they reach that stage especially if it is being spoken in the home by parents or grandparents etc…so I don’t see the point of not learning it when all it takes is exposure and interaction with your family; it’s not like a rigorous study involving assessment. I also don’t quite understand the point of kids “struggling” because if parents have confidence in the kids’ abilities to learn 3 languages (English, Arabic, Spanish)…why view tacking on a 4th language as a “struggle” especially when, unlike the other 3, Urdu (if spoken in the home) will be among the first languages the child is exposed to and that, too, on a regular basis? Unlike the acquisition of the other 3, again it’s not a rigorous training from the parents as you’d get from a teacher, so it’s not a laborious effort. But what I feel is also important is for parents to instill a sense of pride in their native language/culture along with teaching it. I have relos in Pak who are not fluent in English but will brag about not knowing Urdu; I see that insecurity/complex manifested in their actions etc. I’ve seen kids in the US who are exposed to Urdu daily and feel embarrassed/insecure about it…and I see that sort of transfer to other things. So, along with exposure/inculcation of the language, confidence needs to be instilled as well.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
***** Also…and this just came to mind now and would be an interesting topic of debate. If parents speak Urdu to one another daily…but if they have firmly decided that the kids will not/should not learn it (And YES there are parents like this)…does this not send a contradicting or double message to kids maybe even on a subconscious level that English is superior to Urdu…or potentially that even one culture is better than another? I can see how that can happen and how that could potentially impact confidence about identity or lead to a disassociation/disconnection/distancing.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Learning Quranic Arabic and learning everyday modern Arabic are two different thing - learning one type no way automatically means you know the other as well. Why do I feel people are slightly confused about this?
Being a ‘good Muslim’ does not restrict you from learning different languages and knowing more about different cultures. Thank God, Islam does not = Arabism.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
damn!!! whats with all the anger lady?
I am not equating them…i am just saying… since learning a language is ''NOT ESSENTIAL" in making a successful life in amreeka…same is the case with religion… plenty of people get by and lead great lives (by contemporary standards) without following any religion… you said you don’t want your kids to confuse…thats great…i am just saying…why subject kids to religious confusion too? Its not like if they don’t follow religion they will be bad human beings??
Now you said all that proving that you don’t have strong enough links to paksitan… why do you ABCD people get mad when pakistani people say you don’t have strong link to pakistan and don’t really care?? yeh kya baat hui?
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
PS: lame argument was about saying that a kid who speaks and understand a language right from an early age would be subject to hardship if he/she were to be taught how to read/write it… this would be the easiest language for the kid to learn to read and write… may be some teachers here would provide greater insight… this argument doesn’t hold …sorry…
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
After all this rigmarole, I still fail to understand one thing…the title of the thread specifically says “born to Pakistani parents but cannot read urdu” …for those of us born and raised abroad and can **speak **and understand Urdu fluently, but cannot read or write it, why is that bad? And same for the next generations…they can and will learn to speak Urdu, but for those parents who do not see the need to go the extra step and teach them to read and write Urdu, is that really such a big deal?
as I said, how many of us speak Persian, Arabic or Turkish etc. Isn’t that part of the heritage? Somewhere along the way, the language of the land took over and that of ancestors disappeared slowly. A few generations back, educated people still learnt Farsi /Persian and then it just went away.