basic_force
I swear you're ignorant. May God show you some light. I dont claim to be anything. I mean Im one of the worst sinners but I swear you're lost.
Good posts MMughal. as the wise man said - the problem with the world is idiots are dead sure while wise ones are always in doubt. You are in doubt. Which is good.
There are two issues here in my view.
- Is there a God or not? and
- Is the God the one we think is or have been told to be one?
The first question is totally philosophical and will remain unanswered forever. On an individual level, it exists one day and it does not the other day...it is kind of reflection of our own weekness and fear sometimes.
The second question would be harmless if God did not tell different people different things to do. He has totally confused humans by playing one against the other. Now everyone thinks that "the God that he has been told about" is the real one. This is root of our religious conflicts going on around the globe.
MMughal,
Aray bhai, hamen bhi kuch likheneko dedo! Aapne to sabh hi kah diya jo likehne layak tha.
Dear ChannMahi and Arvind,
Thank you very much friends for your good words, I am grateful for your kindness.
best wishes with regards.
Re: Some ex-muslims telling “why I left Islam..??”
Brother Basic Force…All i have to say about this matter is that if u read the laws of various countries like UK USA Canada etc u’ll find that the punishment for Treason in these countries is either death penalty or life imprisonment. So why does this muslim brother find it very hard to accept that Islam also has a penalty for treason ??
Islam by nature is not a violent religion Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:
“If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.”
[Al-Qur’an 9:6]
The Qur’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?
This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur’an to promote peace in the world.
As far as the punishments are concerned, well say if there was no punishment for any of teh sins that u committed what kind of a state this world would be in??? Every country requires rules and punishments to keep its people in check and to maintain peace, similarly Islam also has rules and punishments to keep its followers in check. No where does Islam say that the punishments are for non-muslims only, if muslims commit those sins they too have to be punished what could be more just.
point to be noted is that Allah besides being Merciful and Forgiving, He also has to give severe punishment to the deserving wicked or evil people, because He is also Just.
The Qur’an mentions in Surah Nisa: “Allah is never unjust in the least degree”.
[Al-Qur’an 4:40]
It is further mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya:
“We shall set up scales of justice for the day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, we will bring it (to account): and enough are we to take account”.
[Al-Qur’an 21:47]
Re: Re: Some ex-muslims telling “why I left Islam..??”
punishment is too harsh in religen
Narrated Anas:
Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/082.sbt.html
So what.
Ali Sina can rant and rave all he likes.
He chose to leave Islam. Chose.
If he chooses to jump off a cliff, then that's his decision. Choice.
One person leaving a Faith or Way of life will not have any impact on the fastest growing religion in the world. For every person who leaves Islam, hundreds more join. Like I said before. So bloody what if he left!
Ali Sina the marauder is entitled to his opinions despite how warped they are, just like we are entitled to ours.
The fact is we all have been learning from the day we were born and as we grow in knowledge about ideas and objects we change with time.
It is true that many people change their beliefs, some one way some the other way. Just as many nonmuslims turn muslims so many muslim turn apostates eg SEE HERE
It all depends on what benefits or gives comfort to people at the stage they are in their thought process or in their circumstances.
Nothing happens by chance in nature, everything has a use and a purpose, nothing is wasted or stumbled upon. How than can creation be one big by chance. By chance the universe was created by chance the condition for earth to be inhabitated by life was created. And Human beings were made with a will and intellect by chance, whereas all other species are just on survival mode. We have 'ideas', observe, hypothesize. For example, use the design of birds to make airplanes fly in the air. One big world of ooops 'by chance'.
This is against reason, when nature runs so precise and calculated on laws how can anyone conclude universe, and life came into exsistence ' by chance'.
Roger Penrose, a famous British mathematician wondered taking the physical variables into account, what is the likelihood of a universe giving us life coming into existence by coincidence? He tried to calculate the probability. Including what he considered to be all variables required for human beings to exsist and live on a planet such as ours, he computed the probability of this environment occurring among all the possible results of the Big Bang.
According to Penrose, the odds against such an occurrence were on the order of 10 to exponant 10 to exponant 123 to 1.
It is hard even to imagine what this number means. In math, the value 10 exponant 123 means 1 followed by 123 zeros. (This is, by the way, more than the total number of atoms 10 exponant 78 believed to exist in the whole universe.) But Penrose's answer is vastly more than this: It requires 1 followed by 10 exponant 123 zeros.
In practical terms, in mathematics, a probability of 1 in 10 to exponant 50 means "zero probability". Penrose's number is more than trillion trillion trillion times less than that. In short, Penrose's number tells us that the 'accidental" or "coincidental" creation of our universe is an impossibility.
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I already told you that you can experiment an "un-controlled" explosion. and I told you that you will NOT see any disorder in that.
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Yes that is because I am controlling the explosion and the experiment.
That is why all the atoms that make matter came into an order precisely calculated as in the universe by Allah's will, only He has the ability to make this happen. Allah who is not matter because matter/ time came into exsistence when the universe did. His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe thereupon. The Almighty Creator is One Whom everything finds exsistence, yet Whose exsistence is without any beginning or end. Allah exsisted before time/matter.All ability and power comes through Allah.
As stated in
Surah IKHLAS
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And their none comparable unto him.
There is non comparable to Him. Humanbeings are limited to their senses for their perception of this world. What they see, hear, taste,smell and touch are all atoms or matter. Our senses are tuned to perceive matter. There is not a sole thing we can sense to compare to Allah because we only perceive matter. Allah is not matter thus time is not applied to Him, there is no vision our minds can grasp to compare to Allah because He is Eternal and Absolute.
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision."
(surat al An-am:103)
Therefore the exsistence of Angels, jinns, heaven, and hell, exsist. Allah encompasses everything, and I am limited by my perception and moment to moment exsistence, like the rest of mankind. Life and Death are reality and cannot be dismissed by anyone. All souls of all time pledged their allegiance to Allah before coming into this world to be true to Him and not astray.
How can a peice of flesh in the wombs of our mothers become me or u? Thinking, feeling acting, contemplating beings. What makes our beings is our souls. Science cannot comprehend life and death because it has to do with the soul, which is not matter, beyond our perception. The Quran is the truth and mercy to mankind, it will never become obsolete, the wisdom is eternal. 1400 hundred years ago till today it is the same scripture. as revealed to the Messenger of Allah, who by the way was illiterate. The Quran is the key for us to realize and comprehand the Might of our Creator and what is expected from us in this short lived life.
Modern discoveries testify over and over again the accuracies or truth in the verses of the Quran. Basic Force u can deny and scream on the top of your lungs until u go blue, but the truth always knocks u down.
To deny the creations and signs of Allah is to waste the short time we have to live in this world. Planning how to earn wealth, spend wealth acquire status while ignoring the reality of death that has no sure time can come in any form in the next moment. A Blood clot, heart attack, accident, who knows. We all witness death all around us, everyday, yet we are conditioned to feel immortal when we think of ourselves.
Not a single soul is created in vain, as Allah has stated.
"Did you then think that We had created you in jest, and that you would not be brought back to Us (for account)?" (Surat al-Mumenoon, 115)
Do we not owe it to our beings to realize the truth from the falsehood, before it is too late.
EVOLUTION, WHAT IS IT?
Quite some time ago, I was asked a question, is it possible for a fully functioning jumbo jet to emerge from the jumble of scattered components if the components were thrown together by some chance?
The main problem here was the understanding of the scientific concept or views. Many a time people who talk about science do not really understand what the scientific view is about energy or matter and the properties of these or their behaviour and how they control or decide all aspects of all things, events or their aspects that give rise to any phenomena whatsoever.
The simple fact is, if I know what something or some-one is or is capable of then I have no problem in accepting or rejecting the possible outcomes that are attributed to that something or some-one. If I know that one is not capable of lifting a ten ton truck then it would not be right for me to assume or expect that one can. However, if I know that one is quite capable of carrying two kilograms in weight then it too would be wrong for me to assume that one cannot. On the other hand, if I knew nothing about one then whatever I assume about one or attribute to one would only and only be imaginary and absurd or meaningless. This is why studies about matter and energy are necessary not only in sense of their existence but in sense of their capabilities, characteristics and behaviours as well so that we become more and more aware of them, their characteristics and behaviours. It then helps us to see how they could have given rise to the universe and the things, events or phenomena in it.
Now just as you and I have capabilities and signatures so do all the existing things regardless living in biological terms or not, intelligent in biological and psychological terms are not. For example, the earth quake when it happens and whatever it causes (eg destruction etc as we see it) depends on the factors that determine all its aspects. Each earth quake therefore will only do what has been decided by factors it is dependent upon creating a pattern and scene of its own. It is therefore clear that all earthquakes are controlled phenomena not by any intelligent designer and his determination but by nature of their very existence ie that is the way things are or happen by natural mechanism or set up. It would be absurd for us to say, why the earth quake destroyed things rather than building them? In this village or city instead of that? Why it created this pattern rather than that, or why it happened this way or that way or was not more or less forceful? And so on and so forth. The case is exactly the same if we talk about storm, lightening, thunder or rain etc etc etc. Each and every event in the natural world is controlled by the natural factors in the nature itself. The cause and effect mechanisms for phenomena are clearly obvious in the natural world, needing no further explanations. It is absurd to look for any further independent cause or explanation of the cause or explanation of something that is already clearly explained and is so obvious. For example, if one feels pain because one has cut one’s finger with the knife then that is the cause that resulted in one ending up in pain. Once we have this cause for that effect then we have no need to start searching for any alternative parallel cause for explanation of the very same phenomena of pain.
When any of us are ill, we try to find the causes of their illnesses. How ill any are, is decided by the factors involved in each and every one of the illnesses. If we cut our fingers when peeling fruit for example, the pain we suffer depends on the factors that give rise to or control the sense of pain. So you can see that although things happen all by themselves, they do not happen randomly ie without anything having any control over anything. They are controlled actions and reactions of some things by other things, large or small. This pattern in things gives rise to a concept of natural design that needs no intelligence nor any other parallel explanation. Unless one realises this point one may become confused and therefore think that such events and phenomena could be work of intelligent designer. For example, the natural earth quake happens naturally for natural reasons but to recreate the very same effect we can try and design it as well ie for movies. So one may not be able to see the difference between what nature does and what we design ourselves when copying nature to recreate the same effect for our own purposes. The reason is that it is impossible for energy or matter to exist without its properties and natural behaviour etc. Now these properties are capabilities of these things, for that is the way they exist. In other words you are what or who you are and the way you are, the way you are.
Just as nature can cause explosions and thereby destructions and decide their magnitude or other aspects so it can end up building things from human point of view, for as far as nature is concerned, it is all only a matter of subatomic and atomic interaction within the given space and time, for energy or matter are never at rest. Since energy gave rise to subatomic particles and their interaction gave rise to atomic structures and interactions which in turn brought about elementary and compound molecular structures, so arose what we call the structure of the universe and whatever is in it or is happening in it as we see it today. It arose all by itself from scratch bit by bit as one thing led to another.
To understand the origin of the universe the main thing is to look at the universe the way it is today and start going back in time bit by bit. We will come to realise that as we go back in time, there were less and less number of living things on the earth eg people or other living things. Moreover they were simpler and simpler as compared to later things ie not as complex as the later things. As we go back in time the things people invented would one by one disappear because they were not there till people invented them. There comes a time when there was no life anywhere in the universe. If we keep going back in time we will see that even planets and solar systems and galaxies would appear as mere fragmented clouds of gas. Going yet more into the past would lead us to a universe that was mere a spot that was pure energy without any significant dimensions at all and so virtually non-existent for all practical purposes. This is why unless we try and understand the energy and the matter with all their properties, we cannot be right in claming that they are not capable of doing this or that on their own. If I do not know anything about you, then how right can I be in talking about you and your capabilities ie what you can or cannot be or do etc? Moreover if anyone tells me anything about you, I need to make sure that I am told the truth about you as well as the whole thing, otherwise my judgement about you would be at least defective if not outright wrong.
Likewise, once people know things about energy or matter and its capabilities and how it works etc etc then they are in a much better position to understand things. Although nature gives rise to very strong forces and terrible phenomena yet it is not capable of accomplishing whatever we wish eg assemble a jumbo jet in front of our very eyes. This is not the way nature works and that is why it is wrong to put questions about nature this way. However, if we understand the way the nature works then whatever we see including jumbo jets is brought about by nature using its own mechanisms of many different kinds. Even people did not bring about jumbo jets till nature rendered them capable of doing so. Nature has its own mechanisms whereby it brings about things just like we invent mechanisms to do things we wish to do the way we do eg use mechanisms to lift heavy things. Our own inventions did not come about overnight but took time likewise nature brought about gradually all that we witness today. The automatic mechanisms of nature are always explored and discovered by us gradually. What we did not know a thousand years ago and therefore it was a magical mystery we have come to know some of it by now and the magical effect that it had on our minds for ages has finally disappeared. It is like you do not know how the computer actually works and so you imagine all sorts of things about it, but once you become really aware of its working, the baseless assumptions you were imagining about it disappear.
Likewise to understand how universe might have come about, one has to think about hundreds of kinds of subatomic particles like photons and quarks or protons and electrons etc etc etc that formed in the early universe which bumped into each other as dictated by their then environment and so combined into atoms. Likewise atomic interaction as was dictated by their then environment brought about material universe. All this happened when the universe began expanding like a balloon. As universe expanded it began to cool down and so energy was able to freeze in form of material particles which began interacting due to their very nature of existence giving rise to observable forces and phenomena in nature. The better way to imagine all this is to look for causes of effects. For example, if the roof of a building falls down on the floor, look for reasons or mechanism behind it. May be the metal support structure has given way but what caused that to do so? Likewise, as we find cause after cause, we will come to realise, how automated the whole universe is. In a similar manner look at natural structures and see how they might have come about or what sort of mechanisms are behind them. Once we start looking at things this way to make sense of them, we will come to know a lot more than we already know.
If some people did not think this way, we would not have any judiciary or any other real world based institutions including science of any sort. If we could accept that angels or ghosts and other imaginary things can kill people or other living things, and or commit any sort of crimes, we would have lost the reason to prosecute anyone because everyone would have an excuse that it was not him/her who did this or that but some one or something else. One only has to listen to simple folk about the stories of djinns and ghosts or monsters and satan to realise what I am trying to explain. Belief in magic spells is a big part of fights between relatives or family members among such people, because when they run into problems, they cannot stand back and properly analyse the reasons or mechanism behind them. Since they do not go for reasoning things out, so they do not look for reason based solutions either. Instead they run to the so called magic experts or the maulana sahib to cast out the spell etc and so make things better. This may lead them to more fights and animosity between themselves when someone in position of power over them whom they believe falsely tells them who might have cast the spell upon them in the first place.
Thus looking for obvious reasons and mechanisms is very important if we are at all a sensible people. By shutting our minds to reason and mechanisms we are only participating in promoting and propagating ignorance and thereby superstition hence the outcome is obviously confusion. So it is reason that needs to be applied as the very first thing, not the very last whenever we have to judge things for their truth. Likewise, it is the mechanism of things that we must discover as the very first thing if we ever wish to know about their existence or whatever they do and or how they do it. Anything else is mere figment of our imagination and cannot help us judge things for what they really are or the way they behave.
If we want to condemn science for what it is ie the truth testing mechanism then that is up to ourselves but religion is no alternative for science. Organised religion has been around for as long as it has been since its invention and it was invented by some people to control others. This held people back from progress and the proof is the development in our world that has taken place since the organised religion lost its political power over masses, which was absent the while organised religion was politically in control of things. The natural religion always pushed humanity to take care of itself and it is returning with freedom of thought and expression. The natural religion was the way of life for earlier civilised human beings that evolved with the people and the world and gave rise to religious philosophy but that is a different issue altogether which I cannot address just now.
Going back again please do notice that what I am saying is not intelligent design by any such designer but the perception of natural unintelligent design as unnatural intelligent design by an intelligent being. For example, you can have an actual old building as well as a newly designed one that appears old ie that gives the very same perception. In movies for example, special effects are used to create such perceptions all the time. So one perception is designed by the special effects' artists the while the other is natural ie the one we are trying to recreate. To the person who is watching the movie, all such effects seem so real and thus we could be fooled into believing something about something that is not exactly what it seems to be. Why would god put people through such confusion if he ought to be perceived as the only true creator of the universe? So the design we see in nature is natural design and not the intelligent design. The reason is that we actually see things designing things ie one thing leading to another and so it seem a kind of design rather than random. In nature we see a lot of activity and it seems destructive but if we look at it closely that destruction is part of construction process ie as some things are destroyed others are being brought about. This is the way nature functions. The end product is never known nor designed but something has to result from the process and that something could seem to us as has been designed for a set purpose.
For example, a volcano blows up and we see a pattern created because of it. The debris fall here and there depending on the interaction between all the involved things eg forces etc. We may call it a destructive pattern but to nature it is only a pattern. Rain as it falls on high places and runs down, erodes softer ground creating a river or lake ie a pattern. Thus nature creates natural designs, large or small. If you fill a sack with pebbles and turn it upside down, the pebbles will fall out of it creating a pattern that is dictated by the things involved in the process. This end product was not intended to be this way but something ought to be the end result of the process. In other words interaction between things is inevitable regardless they are large or small. What this clearly shows is the fact that things can do things. If things can do things and we can clearly observe them doing so anywhere and everywhere then the question is, how do they do it? They do it the way we observe them ie one thing leads to the other. For example, when a roof of a building falls in, we try to figure out how exactly it may have happened. How could we do that if we are not able to do so? Now if this is true for all things observable then it ought to be true for things yet not within our reach. Due to this very fact the universe is believed to be fully automatic ie whatever is happening in the universe, it is happening because things within the universe are making it happen. Thus existence and nature of things is also determined by things themselves as well as their behaviours.
All things are made of molecules hence all their aspects are determined by these molecules, which are themselves made of atoms and so they determined their nature of existence as well as behaviours. The existence and nature of all things is therefore determined by molecules and atoms. The atomic existence and nature is determined by subatomic particles. Think it like this that when a person is on one’s own, things are different but as more and more people emerge and interact things change. The case is similar with subatomic particles ie when they were on their own as individuals things were different but as they joined to each other to form atomic structures things became different because each subatomic particle acted the way it did and so resultant or common behaviour of all of them came to being. Likewise when atoms were on their own things were different but as they came together and formed molecular structures things became different due to their interaction with each other. And so as molecular structures formed into bigger and bigger atomic structures and systems things became different. Thus interaction between things from the very smallest to the very largest in various combinations brought about everything that we see and the way we see it. The subatomic particles arose out of energy as earlier universe expanded and began cooling down, so if you like the universe became what it is because of the energy that is the origin of the expansion of the universe.
Lets go to pot and cooking analogy, from energy to the universe all things have properties that determine their individual and combinational nature of existence and behaviours hence the behaviour of the universe and of all things that we see in it. Just as in a cooking pot salt and chillies all have individual characteristics as well as combined characteristics eg tastes, colours or flavours etc etc so do subatomic particles as individuals and as part of each other. Some seem to separate between the things and their properties and behaviours. That is a serious mistake on their part because then so called things are no longer those things because they have broken them down into their individual constituent parts, for things either exist as they are or they do not. If they do, they come as complete units eg you cannot have an atom without what makes it an atom. You cannot have energy without what makes it energy. It is like calling the salt, salt without its saltiness. Now if the salt was without its saltiness then it would not be the salt, would it?
From another angle you would appear to be coining a name for a thing just for name sake ie you are trying to call something a building but it is not a building because it lacks the properties of a building. The question is why would you do that? I assume it is for the reasons other than scientific ie it may be because if you accept things with their properties then they can do things all by themselves as I have explained and that could then affect your belief in god as an intelligent being because as far as you are concern someone needs to be there to initiate or do things rather than something. However if we do not accept natural properties of things that make them what they are or the way they behave then there would be problems with pot and the stuff in it for cooking. Because then potatoes would be without their properties that make them potatoes and tomatoes would not really be tomatoes nor chillies be chillies or salt the salt. Likewise arise problems if we do not accept the fact that energy and matter are capable of doing what they have done , for that is what we observe ourselves. I mean one has to think, what could go wrong if we deny our own observations and experiments?
Finished product always seems difficult to understand if we do not break it down to its simple forms for analysis to see how it might have become so complex and sophisticated. Let us take ourselves for example. After we have grown up and become learned and fully skilled none of us would accept that there was a day when we were none of this. However if we go back in time and analyze how we evolved and developed things will make perfect sense. The very same is true about all things including the universe in which we live.
Mr. Iqraa_K,
To say that your god precisely calculated and put order in all the matter etc. is only a claim. You can believe in such un-proven claims, I cannot.
What is the guarentee that it was only your god who did that...???
Same kind of claims we also here from hinduism as well ...... their barhama also can do that.
And ok I try to explain it with some changed wordings;
You can OBSERVE (i.e. not experiment) the results of any un-controlled explosion, YOU WILL NOT SEE ANY DIS-ORDER IN THAT.
And to say that this innate order was originally feeded to all such phenomeno by your god, is only an un-justified claim.
Any religion of the world can keep such claims for their respective gods.
ali see my web site
RELIGION OR CONCEPT OF LAW AND ORDER
The simple fact is that any state constitution involves various aspects regarding daily life. For example, ideology, politics, society, culture and economics to say the least. Each of these parts of constitution subdivide these aspects yet further. The point is that constitution sets out the direction or goal for a people to move towards. For example, let say that a people want their country to do well economy wise, then this becomes their objective or goal. Now this objectivity decides how people should organise their state and society politically to create the right sort of culture for proper economic development and progress to fulfil the laid out social need or demand ie the set out goal.
There has to be consistency throughout between all aspects of the system or things will not work out. For example, if people want their country to make progress in economy then they cannot have a politcal system that works against it. Likewise, they cannot structure their society in a way that creates the culture that opposes economic progress or it create adverse economic conditions leading to economic depression or collapse, which is bound to result in knock on effect.
This is why system of government, rights and reponsibilities of office bearers and citizens, social relationships and laws all need to be consistent or the state will collapse. Why? Because an inconsistent system would pull things in different directions tearing itself apart and will not meet the needs of the people of the state and they will rise up against the state leading it to destruction.
Now what is inconsistency in terms of law and order?
My view is that laws need to be such that are needed for people to organise their society for peaceful existence, that would help stability of the state making room for progerss and develoment for porsperity of the people in the state.
Would it make sense to make and implement such laws as lead to killing and maming of people with out removing the causes of the crimes? It would only create more and more crippled people as well as loss of manpower through killing of people in the name of punishment of criminals. A state which thus alienates its people is unlikely to survive their wrath.
So first concern should be economic reforms for welfare of citizens not punishments so that each and every person can afford descent food, employment, shelter, education and healthcare etc etc facilities. You cannot be talking sense if you talk about measures that would cripple the state economy. If you are poor, you cannot afford even the daily bread never mind descent education. So one needs to think about these things seriously.
Logic must be allowed to lead the way if humanity is to survive and make progess and prosper. Since I have highlighted the idea of state constitution objectively ie the reason for organising a human society in form of a state, I would now talk about the law. The law is divided into two branches a) civil and b) criminal.
The purpose of law is not to punish people but to help society function smoothly for its set out goals. Since some members for some reason eg ignorance or lack of sanity may become a problem for the rest of society and so hinder it from achieving its goals therefore it is necessary to deal with such elements and situations.
The main point one must realise is the psychological fact that it is impossible for anyone mentally fit to break a social norm knowing full well the consequences. For example, how comfortable would you feel after murdering an innocent person? Or would you be able to murder an innocent person being fully aware the damage it would cause to the society and thereby to individuals dependent on that person including yourself? Say someone kills a child who may have the potential to become a doctor one day or some one may kill a doctor, is it not a loss to society and the individual? Each and every member in a society has some role assigned eg a teacher, a student, a police officer, a farmer etc etc etc...... So killing any member of society is a serious loss to all. A society is a family, if this family loses a memeber by mistake of another member then what should it do? It must find out the reason behind this loss eg did the killer make the mistake by ignorance or is he mentally disturbed? If it was a mistake out of ignorance then he must be made to make good that mistake as much as is humanly possible for him but if he is insane then he too needs medical help not death panelty. If we simply put each and every murderer to death then the family is going to lose two members each time instead of one ie the victim as well as the muderder and no doubt losing more members of society is more loss to society particularly if the members are productive as well.
This concept forms the basis of law formation of any civilised society. We are not looking for revenge against each other, if we did that, we are not a civilised society at all but barbarian enemies living together at each others throat. This is why education is important to help people realise what society means. Without knowing the importance of society people would not know the purpose of having a law. Law is not there so that we could justify killing of each other in the name of law but it is mainly there to regulate the society, that is if there is such a thing called a society. Law cannot be used to make a society if it is not there.
Now that we know the purpose of law ie to regulate a civilised human society so that it runs as smoothly as possible, the law has a few aspects eg definition of crime, crime prevention, crime detection, crime prosecution and reformation of convicted criminal so that the person could become a descent member of society once again.
Crime prevention measures are a must as well as first and foremost. For example, if people are forced by their circumstances to steal for living then society is not there because in a descent society people must not need to steal for living. So instead of punishing people for stealing, the society needs to organise itself and reform its economic system so that it is geared towards meeting their essential daily needs. In fact economic prosperity is a must because all other things depend on it. For example, you cannot get a wife unless you can afford it, but need of human body cannot be masked or diverted. When people will go hungry they are bound to kill each other in order to survive, it is simple as that.
So provided people do not need to commit crime but yet they do then we need to be able to detect crime, so that we could apprehend people as much as humanly possible so that no crime goes undetected. If we could catch almost all criminals, people will not find it easy to commit crime and that would act as a very strong deterent ie fear of being caught and the prospect of humiation in front of everyone else is not an insignificant thing at all. This is because if society is doing good for you and you turn round and do bad to it and you are caught at it, then you are going to put yourself in a very shameful situation.
The prosecution bit has two aspects, the first is to prevent an innocent man being convicted of a crime that he did not commit and the second is to not to let the criminal escape justice. To achieve this we need to balance them on the required evidence for prosecution and conviction. Too high the standard of required evidence and the accuseds will most of the time walk away from the crime scot free. Likewise too low standard of required evidence and all accused would end up convicted including the innocent ones as well. To set the balance right the society must monitor overall crime, prosecutions and convictions and alter the balance accordingly to a level that the society is happy with ie it can live with.
Likewise there has to be a balance between the nature of the crime and its compensation or correction or if you like punishment etc. For example, setting up too high standard for evidence for conviction would let almost all accused off the hook, for we will not be able to gather such evidence to bring about prosectuions against the would be accused, so severe punishment for such crimes would serve no purpose. For example, if we say that if anyone is accused of stealing, we need ten witnesses to charge the accused and prosecute him and if convicted, we will chop off his head then things are not going to work. It is because we will almost never get that many witnesses, so such harsh punishment would not be any deterent at all just because we say we will kill the convict, for accused would know full well that they cannot be prosecuted because the required evidence against them is impossble to obtain.
Coming to prosecution. it is a bit difficult task because first of all many crimes could go undetected. Even if some are detected, not all witnesses will be willing to give evidence. Even if some did, not all witnesses will stand the cross-examination by the defence team of the accused and so all criminals would not necessarily end up being convicted. This is why system must be coordinated properly so that it serves its assigned purpose as best as it can.
Most people when they talk about law and order have no clue as to what is involved in all this. Believe you me it is nothing less than a serious headache. Likewise looking after the mentally unstable or reforming a criminal is not an easy task either. It needs loads of money and proper manpower which is not easy to get. In poor countries like pakistan, bangladesh etc we do not have many choices, have we? It is either food or death for many.
I have not touched on islamic sharia laws for obvious reasons but the ideas expressed work the same. This is just a brief explanation to help us see the problems that are involved in matters related to law and order or rules and regulations of the constitution for office bearers and the citizens etc.
Since western concept of society is based upon fairness and equality or humanism, hence western rules of law are different from islamic rules of law as practiced in saudi arabia or pakistan for example or for that matter in iran. Islamic laws in these states are clealry male oriented tribal based hence all rules of law are biased and discrimnate against nonmuslims and women or children etc etc. I am not going to go into issues about discrimition by muslims against nonmuslims in islamic societies like saudia but that is how the west sees islam and muslims with suspicion. I do not think that even muslims understand what islam is all about. They just go with the notion of religion being a good thing and that is all there is to it. As soon as we dig deeper we see many problems with different versions of islam and the muslim mindset and that is what the west talks about and so do all intellectuals and thinkers. Only if muslims themselves realise their problems that things may change for the better for them otherwise things are bound to continue the way they have been and that is not a good news or something to feel comfortable with.
Regards and all the best.
Mmughal,
There isn't a post of yours that I haven't learned something from!
Dear Arvind,
That was very generous of you. Thank you very much for the appreciation, I am grateful. I think exchanging ideas and information is a very good way to learn from each other, for ideas breed ideas and information helps us make better choices in life for ourselves.
Regards and best wishes.
Hello everyone,
Mr. iqra_k,
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Nothing happens by chance in nature
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Actually after the advent of the Chaos Theory, we know that there is NO such thing as random, and therefore order or disorder are nothing but illusions in reality. I-e if something seems very systematic to you , it may seem very chaotic to me or someone else. Order and beauty in this sense, seems to be quite synonymous: both lies in the eye of the beholder.
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everything has a use and a purpose, nothing is wasted or stumbled upon.
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To claim the truth of this statement of yours, you MUST be having the knowledge of:
- EVERYTHING that exists
The Purpose of EVERYTHING that exists
As you are an ordinary human, I dont expect that you know either of these. That means you are lieing and I must ask why are religious people compelled to lie inorder to provide support for their belief?
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How than can creation be one big by chance. By chance the universe was created by chance the condition for earth to be inhabitated by life was created.
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But you are thining of the process of evolution just like Creation. The process of Evolution takes a long long time, which is because it is NOT guided by concious intelligence.
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This is against reason, when nature runs so precise and calculated on laws how can anyone conclude universe, and life came into exsistence ' by chance'.
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Noone says that it came into existance by chance. If someone says that, he means to say (in simple words) that it was not guided by intelligence. The argument you are putting here is the most famous (and quite out-dated) argument of the theists: 'The argument by design'. It has been repeatedly refutted by one simple question by philosophers and scientists: If something can't exists without there being a creator, how can that creator then exist without there being a creator of that creator. So for people who really want answers, 'the argument by design' does'nt help much but instead it further complicates the matters.