So where is the 8% growth going?

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

^get your facts right,poverty rate in Pakistan is around 30% which is an improvement since 1999.Its still quite high and it probably won't come down dramatically in just a few years even with more economic progress since population growth rate among poor is very high.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

fatastic posts Saleem. Thanks for indepth reviews.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

I agree . Saleem, thank you for your detailed and very informative posts!

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

Here is another article that contains tha latest information revealed by Government.

25 per cent people living below poverty line: Govt
Tuesday May 30, 2006 (0112 PST)

ISLAMABAD: Instead of 35 per cent, 25 per cent people are living below the poverty line in the country due to government’s policies.
This was told in a briefing given to media by the government about the targets of new budget and country’s economic situation on Monday.
Minister of state for Finance Ummar Ayub Khan, Prime Minister Advisor on Finance Dr Sulman Shah and Information Minister Muhammad Ali Durrani briefed the media men.
Information Minister Muhammad Ali Durrani said that the government has decided to make this budget the budget for poor, in which all people would be included in developmental process.
He said that Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz himself would talk with media about next budget on Wednesday at 5:00 pm.
Prim Minister Advisor on Finance Dr Sulman Shah said that GDP rate remained 6.6 while fiscal deficit remained 4.3 per cent including earthquake losses during current financial year.
He added that fiscal deficit without earthquake losses remained 3.5 per cent which was lower than 3.8 per cent target.
Shah said that inflation target was fixed at 8 per cent in current fiscal year but it decreased in the end of this year.
He noted that 35 million people were living below the poverty line.
Shah said that government wanted to fix 6.5 per cent inflation target for next financial year.
He said that the GDP target would be 8 per cent while the target for fiscal deficit to be fixed 4.2 per cent.
The security situation in the region may affect these targets, he said.
To a question about defence expenditures, Shah said that defence spending has been cut down from 6.5 GDP rate to 3.5 per cent adding, but we are not unaware from defence situation, as all the needs of armed forces would be met.
He said that armed forces would be modernized on latest pattern.
To query about price-hike, raise in sugar rates and investigation about ministers and sugar mills owners involvement in sugar crises, Shah said that investigation would be launched to know the reasons behind the small cultivation of sugar-cane and stocking of sugar.
He said that new NFC Award would be formed with the inclusion of the amended previous Award.
Minister of state for Finance Ummar Ayub Khan said that uplift programmes would be started in every district under Khushal Pakistan.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=145234

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

dont tell me ur going to believe the cooked up numbers that the govt presents .. and when did u last go to pakistan? i suggest take a trip down there and spend some time outside ur home sweet home and see the reality for urself.

this govt is certainly better thn bhutto’s and sharif’s but in no way shape or form is it the answer to even half of our problems…

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

^world bank is backing up those numbers...i live in Pakistan...i know that situation has improved here for a lot of people for example,growth in textile sector has been able to create more jobs for the lower class people..but ofcourse inflation,water and electricity shortages a huge issue here at the moment,if the idiots in interior sind and punjab won't let them build dams then that will continue to be a problem

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

^^ then come out of ur glass house and see the reality. conditions have improved for a lot of people no question abt that. But those peopels are mostly mid and upper classes. Pak can never move forward in the real sense unless the poor man starts to benefit directly from govt policies.

Poor are getting poorer, corruption hasn't improved an inch, violence is probably less now in Karachi then before but inflation is getting ridiculous. Pak of now is certainly better then the Pakistan of Nawaz, Bhutto and even Zia. But there's a long long way to go. And we're not necessarily going in the right direction by continuing to ignore the poor man.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

:k: poor are getting poorer due to inflation, and rupee is falling against other currencies ($, £)

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

dams are not the only solution to electricity shortge, only people who can afford electricity care about it anyway.
what about the poors? rhy care about having enough water to grow crops and drink! but dams are a big waste of water, and sindh is too dry to afford loosing more water, or you may want more water shortage in karachi?

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

^ a big reason for water shortage in pakistan is that there are'nt enough dams..a lot of the water in indus goes out to the sea and is wasted cause there are'nt enough dams to hold it,there is a report by world bank on that it backs up what Musharraf has been saying that Pakistan is in serious need of dams..india and china have built many,Pakistan needs to do the same.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

^ I do business here.I employ poor people.I know the situation of poor here better than you.Labor for garment factories is more expensive now than it was 6 years ago,also there is less supply of it since more poor people have been able to find jobs.Ofourse that does'nt mean that poor are having a great time of it,but to suggest that their situation has'nt improved the slightest or gotten worse would be inaccurate.Govt is moving in the right direction they have invested huge amounts of money in alleviation of poverty,but it is a problem that can't go away overnight especially considering the high birth rate among the poor people in Pakistan.A wealthier middle class and upper class helps the poor in the sense that theres going to be more money spent,invested and as a result more jobs created for the poor,its trickle down economics,so rich getting richer is not that bad.But wealthy people need to be taxed more, the upcoming bugdet is rumored to have new capital gains tax which has got the stock market worried.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

Saleem, thanks for such a detailed answer. What I understand from this is that the economy is growing and the per capita income of a Pakistani is also growing, thats a good sign as it shows a real time increase in income of an average Pakistani. But my main question was never about how the economy is growing rather where an average Pakistani can see this growth or more about the fiscal responsibility. Lets say the economy is growing and there are more monies in the coffers of the government, would this be a right assumption, that the state has more money to spend on different projects and the people have more money and that they can be taxed? Then where is that money going?
The cities are begging the states and the states are begging the federal govt for money and the federal govt spends another extra 12% on defense, in this case, the federal govt is clearly not considering the 2.4% annual population increase and the demands of the cities. The administration, government, establishment what ever we call them, is making sure that the cake remains small enough for the people so atleast they can pray, thats one smart growth policy.

[QUOTE]

Well, if there is no cake or a small piece, none can get anything. We can only talk about having cut when there is cake. Pakistan unfortunately has little cake to cut and what poor are getting may not be enough, but with such a small cake, they should pray that size of cake increases else there wont be enough to share anyhow.

[/QUOTE]

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

That is incorrect. If we start to subsidize for the "poor" the economic growth will slow down as it negates the "competitiveness" in people, hampers productivity when they see that less productive people are getting same rewards as productive people. To some extent I am a socialist myself but what you said is incorrect in the context.

[quote]
Poor are getting poorer, corruption hasn't improved an inch, violence is probably less now in Karachi then before but inflation is getting ridiculous.
[/quote]

Inflation has ALWAYS been ridiculous in Pakistan, close to 14-16%. Poor are getting poorer in almost all parts of the world, there is a reason for that. Many of those poor have "chosen" to be poor not necessarily by a "conscious" mind but by not adapting to changing demands of the growth. For example in US, they lost major production jobs in 1980s but those who lost their jobs went back to school/education and changed their career to something else and started contributing to the economy i.e. they adapted to changing demands of growth. But in same country you will find many many poor people, why? because they don't understand/adapt the changing demands.

Big chunk of our poors don't think of education, they continue to pour their kids to work and hence unable to progress forward, they continue to "struggle" at the low end of the society.

[quote]
Pak of now is certainly better then the Pakistan of Nawaz, Bhutto and even Zia. But there's a long long way to go. And we're not necessarily going in the right direction by continuing to ignore the poor man.
[/quote]
Now read your sentences again :) ... Pak is certainly better, right? I agree that its a long way to go. When "mid-upper" class gets more and spends more, who will it benefit? The front-runners of any economy are middle-class and upper-class so they are the first "winner" or gainers from the growth, once the "gain" settles it then starts drifting to the poorer ones, of course it won't be the same gain.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

You’re asking for too much. You cannot have every problem sorted out overnight. The money is being used in investments, etc, debt reduction.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

This is not true.

Poverty rate in Pakistan has come down from 33% to 21% in the last 5 years.

The poor or cmmon man as you call them are benefiting.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

Inflation will come down. Inflation always rises when the economy grows so fast. It's called overheating. But it will come down soon.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

First, I would like to thanks Zakk, Parissenoor, mYsTeRiOuS_gUy, yildiz_79, gravity_killz, mAd_ScIeNtIsT and all who appreciated my previous post. You are welcome.
**
Minime:** What I can understand, what you are trying to question is that, even if economy is growing, piece of cake for the poor seem still same (and administration is making sure that it stays same).

I believe differently. I believe that cake size has increased and that poverty has decreased substantially. Why? Because figures say so that poverty in Pakistanhas reduced substantially during last 6 years and that overall, situation of poor have got better. Would you like to believe it? I feel that you would not like to believe that. So let look at it in different way. I hope that you will look at what I will write logically, not according to what you would like to believe regardless of evidence.

Actually, all figures, be it of growth rate, inflation or reduction in poverty, it comes from government. We have to trust that. It is difficult if not impossible to fudge these figures a little. Regardless, World Bank, IMF, Asian development Banks and other lenders scrutinize the figures, as when lending, they are also staking their capital, and have ability to work out the truth.

If figures are fudge and government is involved in that, country can easily become bankrupt (also lose world respect) as no lenders would trust figures of such governments (even true), and thus the country would not be able to take loan or could have credit from anywhere. Figures sometime are wrong, but most of the time it is unintentional or because of mismanagement, incompetence or defective accounting practices.

Anyhow, one will always find people from opposition, especially those who are corrupts and survive on ignorance, misguide unaware people that figures are not true (especially when figures are good). They would have no answer if anyone asks that why the figures was bad when they were in power, were they truthful and others are lair? Fair enough, people are ignorant and these people are crooks, so being crooks they are just following their nature to take advantage of people’s ignorance.

Anyhow, it is no good asking people to accept figures unquestioned (people have seen so many corrupts in Pakistan they stopped trusting anything and anyone, especially what they do not understand). So let forget the figures and come to observation and analysis that even an ignorant can see (actually, I did mentioned about that earlier too).

Are Pakistani better off now then before?

Fortunately, a very unfortunate thing happened recently in Pakistan, however unfortunate, tells a lot about the state of Pakistani poor economical conditions. That was shortage of Sugar and Cement and their rocketing price.

Let be realistic, ask question and analyse:

Sugar consumption per head in Pakistan is increasing every year, specially recently it has increased a lot. Who is increasing the consumption per head? Obviously, it must be poor.

Non-poor (rich, moderately rich and middle class) would be consuming sugar what they want, regardless of affordability, as they would be affording anyhow. Thus, consumption of this group would stay constant.

High sugar consumption is not necessary. Poor that once had difficulty to consume too much sugar because they need that money for other needs, once get richer, starts consuming more sugar. That is what logic says, right?

Thus, increase in sugar consumption shows that poor are economically getting better (have more money in the pocket).

Now come to sugar shortage in Pakistan:

World Health Organization (WHO) recommends that a person should not consume more then 50 gram of sugar a day maximum; that comes to around 18.25 Kg of refined sugar per person per year (better to consume even less).

Pakistan refined sugar production is around 3.9 to 4 million tons (capacity to produce is much more). Pakistan population is around 160 million. That means Pakistan maximum sugar consumption should be 2.9 million tons a year or less. Pakistan actually consumption is around 3.8 to 3.9 million tons a year (around a million ton more then WHO recommendation).

Now ask yourself, what would happen if due to sugar shortage, price rockets.

Normal logic says that poor would reduce sugar consumption if price goes beyond their affordability, especially if they are consuming much more then they need. This would reduce demand and would bring the price down, right?

Sugar production this year was 2.8 million tons. Carried forward stock from last year was around 0.9 million tons. Thus, available sugar was 3.7 million tons. True that mill owners did not brought all their sugar output into market, still there was no need for people to get frenzy, right? [Actually, mill owners realized that buying power has increased so it does not matter to hold sugar]. Now, was it necessary to import huge quantity of sugar to increase supply and thus fulfill demands of people sweet tooth (mostly poor)?

What happened? Even though sugar price gone too high in Pakistan, most poor kept consuming their need as pressure on sugar demand by poor kept the price high and country had to import lot of sugar. Am I Right?

Thus, logic says that even when there was shortage of sugar (though no shortage according to WHO) and price rocketed, there was little reduction in consumption shows that poor can afford that price, means that poor are getting better economically.

Cement tells the same story. Even when cement consumption increased from 9 million tons to 14 million tons in last 6 years, cement shortage happened and price rocketed. Still, demand did not decreased and government had to import huge quantity of cement. It shows that, people are getting richer.

Let look at new vehicles sales.

About 6 years ago, Pakistan use to produce 33,000 cars a year and sale was similar number. Production of motorcycle was 90,000 units and sale was similar number too. Today, Pakistan produces around 200,000 cars and over half a millions (500,000) motorcycles a year, still there is shortage.

What is happening? Where are these buyers coming from? Logic says that many who were not even able to afford new car are now buying new car. Seems most motorcycle buyers have upgraded themselves to car.

Many who were poor enough and not even able to buy motorcycle are now buying them in large number. What logic says? It only says that many from poor have upgraded themselves from not even able to buy motorcycle are buying motorcycle and car.

Let see some production figures of durable items and think logically.

TV sets production was around 120000 units and now around a million.
Air conditioner was around 5000 units and now 150000 units.
Refrigerator was around 200000 units and now around 650000 units.

Mobile phone users have increased from negligible number 6 years ago to now over 40 million subscribers and could reach 70 million subscribers by end of next year.

Just imagine that livestock growth last year was 8 percent, shows that meat, milk and yogurt consumption has increased substantially.

What does it shows? Logic says that people are upgrading themselves, buying increasing number of car, motorcycle and other durable goods, buying cements in increasing quantity to make their houses, consuming more high price food (especially poor, as rich must be consuming same as past as it is difficult to increase food consumption even when one have more money) etc. Am I Right?

Well, consumption in Pakistan is increasing so fast that Pakistan increased their gas requirement from Iran-Pakistan pipeline. Initially, Pakistan was asking for 2.1 billion cubic feet per day. Now they have increased their want to 2.8 billion cubic feet per day (33 percent increase). Program is to start looking for more supplies as growth expectation is high. Faster increase in growth would mean faster increase in demand. Government has reduced the expected life of Pakistan gas fields, as increase in demand would consume these reserves quicker.

Obviously, rich cannot increase demand as what they wants, money does not stop them to have that. Logic says that it must be poor who are getting financially better and thus increasing demand. What do you think?

Same increase in demand is true regarding electricity, water, road or anything people need in life. Demand is increasing, not slowly but very fast. It shows that people are getting financially better off and thus demanding more, while government is trying to get them more.

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

Whats the IMF stat for our poverty rate? 25%?

Can someone provide a link?

Jazak

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

IMF dont do poverty stats. IMF do credit rating.

Here’s one link.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/mar-2006/1/index4.php

Re: So where is the 8% growth going?

It's a good analysis, and proof that a middle class has developed in Pakistan, finally.