i dont want to defend the perpetrators of such a crime but the point is...what were these guys sposed to do? go against the PANCHAYAT? thats unimaginable in rural society and is considered very very bad. its like the panchayat there is the local/district/high/supreme court for these ppl and they have to follow its orders
the local police and courts usually dont even get involved in these matters...the panchayat solves these issues....
so thats another thing...why and how in this case was the chain of events brought to public and media light
bibi you're assuming certain things about this. there is no reason to suppose those 5 people were forced into doing what they did, nor that they were under threat of harm if they didnt rape her. if i commit murder because someone told me to, aside from what whoever told me to gets, i certainly should get the murderer's punishment.
i agree but just because its the norm doesnt mean they shouldnt be punished. the main reason for punishment in Islam is deterrence. u think if 5 such people were hanged and others werent shown any mercy, the tendency of people to obey such stupid rulings wouldnt be undermined?
but how can u punish them when they dont even realise that they've commited such a heinous crime.
its like the whole hijab thing. Muslim women see it as empowering, western women see it as oppressive. they have two different points of view.
in the same way these guys think that what they did is right coz their local tribal laws tell them that. the law of the country and shariah say otherwise.
so now how can we just punish them?
its only when there is a uniform legal system can the law be applied to everyone.
i understand what you're saying irem, but these people wouldnt be punished if the panchayat had any legal significance. a bunch of guys ganging together and saying hmm.. rape that girl is just not allowable. the legal system is uniform, what they did was illegal, and therefore they should be punished.
so what if these guys think they are right, a lot of rishwatkhors honestly think its right to take rishwat, a lot of thieves think thieving is right. just because some a has become so ingrained in society that it becomes normal for it to happen doesnt mean we stop prosecuting it.
hein to saray musalmaan na? how can you believe they were unaware that rape is wrong while they were muslims?
hmm...well..u do have a point ravage...
the difference though is that these ppl have grown up to believe that the panchayat is THE legal system for them. they've never been taught to believe in the police or local courts.
so for them, the law and decision of the panchayat is what they are societally obligated to respect.
btw, i am certainly NOT saying dont take action...
what i'm saying is:
if the action is persecution of individuals (which as i explained in my posts above is not something i think to be the right punishment in this scenario) then how to decide who to persecute? is it ok to persecute these 5 only in that case?
is it JUST the fault of these 5 guys? or is the panchayat and the people in the village equally to blame?
"can these 5 guys be singled out as the guilty party" is my question.
i get ur point. i see what u're saying.
yes they are Muslim and they know that dishonoring a female is wrong, yet on the flip side of the coin our religion also asks us to obey the laws of the land and these ppl were also doing that by following the ruling of the panchayat.
as for ur point that they must be punished to stop this crime from happenning in the future...it holds weight...but, i still think it would be unfair to punish just these 5 for a crime that was committed collectively by them + panchayat + village.
this is some of the most ludicrous and faulty logic i’ve ever heard. there are american serial killers behind bars for murdering dozens of innocent people involved in inter-racial relationships…i’m sure those men truly and honestly felt that inter-racial dating was a horrific sin and morally reprehensible. they were probably taught this from the time they were small children and spent their lives in societies that share those views. does this mean they should not be punished? after all, they are only products of their society and performing extensions of their society’s values.
street gangs in urban U.S neighborhoods are taught that crime is glorious. this is their mentality, instilled in them by their mentors and peers. murder of police officers and rival gangmembers is an elevation of status for them. and they truly believe policemen and rival gangs deserve death and are their enemies. when these people commit murder, should they not be punished?
trust me…there are hundreds of other examples. if you think there’s any shortage of people who commit crimes based on values ingrained in them since they were impressionable children, you’re delusional…it’s not some small minority of innocent murderers. most of these people have serious problems and confused value systems…jails all over the world are full of such people.
i’ve noticed your pretty fierce hatred for U.S military actions in Iraq, based on this let us assume that many american soldiers are committing serious crimes (murder, etc.)…do you not think those soldiers believe they are doing good for the world and their country? do you not think they truly believe they are killing evil people with bad intentions? they certainly do. yet i’d bet you would be one of the last to declare them innocent. most of those guys believe they are laying their lives on the line to defend freedom, blah blah…and that is understandable, as there are plenty of decent arguments put forth over the how removing Saddam was good, installing democracy, or whatever. but in this panchayat rape case, i seriously can’t imagine what the hell kind of justification these gangrapists used to feel good about what they were doing. can you?
btw, charles manson never even touched a single one of his victims. he had a handful of completely brainwashed chamchas that carried out all his orders. please note that ALL involved parties are currently rotting in jail with numerous life sentences each. the brainwashed chamchas were not absolved of guilt, nor was charles manson left unpunished. that should be a good example here.
the bottomline is that these people are answerable to a judicial system (panchayat) that conflicts with the higher judicial system of the land (police, legal courts)
i’m sorry, what is your point? american soldiers must answer to their superiors and obey orders, gangmembers must answer to their superiors and obey orders, etc. etc.
how does this change the fact that deplorable crimes have been committed and require punishment?
the examples u gave dont apply b/c these ppl are not bound under some system of law that they’ve been raised to respect and are expected by society to follow to commit those crimes.
the guys under discussion in this thread were bound under a system of law that they’ve been raised to respect to commit what they did. that system of law being the panchayat
these two situations are not comparable.
the guys were bound by the law they follow to commit those crimes.
the soldiers were bound not by law but by economic reasons to fight in the us army since being in the usa army is their job which they use to earn livelihood. no law requires them to be in the army. if they’ve been forcefully drafted and sent to iraq thats another thing.
i’ll say the same thing i said in the beginning of this post. charles mason was one guy who brainwashed ppl. charles mason was not a legal authority those ppl were answerable to.
these 5 guys were answerable to their panchayat.
from what i understand, she believes there should be some level of culpability reduction in the case of the 5 actual rapists (or in the case of honor killings, as she referenced), due to the fact that they were ordered to commit the crimes, and that the panchayat is the authority (that nobody dares oppose). that’s all great…but that simply means that the panchayat should be punished too. i don’t understand why the men should deserve any degree of sympathy.
my point is that there should be absolutely no easing of punishment or blame of the rapists. i doubt some panchayat head stood there holding a gun to any of these guys’ heads, and i doubt they had any great qualms with their orders. like i said, i don’t deny that they are embedded in a system… and earnestly and legitimately hold jahil values…but who cares?
ravage but for these ppl all they know IS the panchayat, they don’t know police and courts. the panchayat is the all encompassing legal entity for them.
its the same thing in the frontier. u have the pashtoonwali code that the jirga follows. pashtoonwali says give refuge to guests so thats what jirga rules. law of state says dont give refuge to foreigners. so what r these ppl sposed to do? for them pashtoonwali comes first. the govt needs to make sure to exercise its authority enough and make it clear that not pashtoonwali but law of govt of pakistan is what needs to take precedence. these two conflicting legal systems cant coexist.
back to this case: punishing these 5 only will do some good for sure but is it fair to punish just them and secondly if we want to nip this evil in the bud we need to get rid of the panchayat system or else make sure that the ppl who make the decisions in these panchayats are legally qualified and align whatever rulings they make with the state law, and don’t follow their own value system to make decisions.
cool…how about they just don’t answer to the panchayat if the panchayat orders them to commit heinous crimes?
there are severe punishments for u.s soldiers, gangmembers, etc. for insubordination too - including death and imprisonment. what makes them so different from villagers?
ok just think about what you’re saying…this isn’t about punishing only the rapists…this is about NOT punishing ANYBODY. if the panchayat isn’t punished, then nobody should be punished? that’s ridiculous…let the rapists be punished first, then move onto the panchayat.