The fact of the matter is that idiots from all sides need to be dealt with, either let them duke it out in some remote region mad max style or throw them all in jail.
we have no room for sectarian violence and the type of brainwahsing these groups have been doing, and we dont have any room for vigilante justice either.
outlaw and others, you may be confusiong sipah-e-muhammad with jaish-e-muhammad. SM was the terrorist offshoot of Tehrik Jafaria after it went more mainstream.
Sorry for Outlaw who forgot the slogan Azam Tariq used to chant out " Shia Kafir " so leading innocent sunni youngs to kill shias as a way to get into heaven as his ancesstor been doing since long. My sister widowed cos her hubby a doc was shot down by these instigated suuni youngs, her orphan kids are still looking forward not only to justice but also the fatherhood they had been deprived of by these heaven seeking youngs exploited by Azam Tariq. This story does not ends here , many families had been destryed by the followers of Azam Tariq.
In contrary Sajid Naqvi has never inititated such movement of revenge on basis of " faith " or exploited the innocent minds to kill other muslim fellows in the hope of getting in " heaven"....if you cannot utter justice you should feel for it....... but if you just plead the action of ONE who had exploited islamic faith to kill and destroy the families of fellow muslims...is one like to refresh the wounds and curse the justice.
sorajson
I agree with you that this guy and his party members were very bad for our country, it is just the question of vigilante justice that I have an issue with. did this guy deserve to get teh death penalty, sure, he was behind much of the violence, but an assassination is not teh answer.
Our justice system may have failed the people impacted by such groups, whether it is loons like sipah e sahaba or sipah e muhammad, they should have been outlawed years ago. but the justice system has failed many others, on issues ranging from property taken over by ppl to inheritance issues so this is nothing new.
But if we allow one person to deliver what he considers justice via his vigilante actions where he is the judge jury and executioner, that is in practice saying that someone else could do the same with what they think is justice..
Mr. FRAUDIA !!
I didn't mean that what you could percieve from my txt, but I was much dishearted over the opinion of Outlaw who has been putting wt of innocence in the part of Azam Tariq as compared to Sajid Naqvi. If you just analyse the statments of both sides as per neutral way you cannot find any instigation of killings muslim fellows with hope of getting into heaven in shia leaders while the other side ever kept on breaking fire.I wanted to make realise and admit to this very fact as a part of discussion.
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*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
sorajson
But if we allow one person to deliver what he considers justice via his vigilante actions where he is the judge jury and executioner, that is in practice saying that someone else could do the same with what they think is justice..
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I'm sure you wouldn't have this feelings if your mother was widowed by such sunni fanatics or if your wife and children were gunned down.
There is a limit to the number of shias that can be gunned down before they take charge.
Azam was sent to hell. Now, the shias have sent a clear message. And if this violence is to end, the government better do something about it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *
I'm sure you wouldn't have this feelings if your mother was widowed by such sunni fanatics or if your wife and children were gunned down.
There is a limit to the number of shias that can be gunned down before they take charge.
Azam was sent to hell. Now, the shias have sent a clear message. And if this violence is to end, the government better do something about it.
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lets start with something basic.. My uncle was murdered in broad daylight and I have a good family friend who was murdered by jamiaat ppl while he was at DMC. as much as I despise Jamiaat and have very strong feelings about it. I will not let my emotions guide me to break the law. I may want to and feel like it, but I would not.
so the guy who murdered azam is a murderer as well, no matter what his motivations or feelings were, he went above the law to kill someone.
I am not interested in the whole shia-sunni politics aspect of this drama, but a purely legal aspect. as far as I am concerned every member of sipah sahaba lashkar jhangvi sipah muhammad and tehrik jafaria can be thrown in the jail and be prosecuted for their crimes and memberships of these hate groups.
azam broke the law when he incited ppl to attack shias, and the guy who gunned down azam broke the law when he gunned him down. did the govt fail..rather has it been failing to do something about this for years, sure no doubt about it, they should have completely banned these groups decades ago.
however, it still does not make it right, my disgust for azam aside, murder is just murder and the guy who killed him is no hero.
madhanee, i dont think i disagree with you on any point here. my only point is that two wrongs do not make a right..two wrongs are just whattheya re 2 wrongs and represent the state of affiars in the country, having lived in karachi and then spending some summers there i have seen what sectarian violence..whether its religious, ethnic whatever can do..
If we can move beyond this whole war business, and start empowering our ppl and taking care of all that is neglected we are going somewhere.
The fundamental point is that even a relatively clean ruler of Pakistan such as Musharraf found it okay to take the support of terrorists like Azam Tariq.
That by itself shows that our system is fundamentally flawed.
BTW, dhir stay out of this. You worry about BJP/Shiv Sina
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
madhanee, i dont think i disagree with you on any point here. my only point is that two wrongs do not make a right..two wrongs are just whattheya re 2 wrongs and represent the state of affiars in the country, having lived in karachi and then spending some summers there i have seen what sectarian violence..whether its religious, ethnic whatever can do..
If we can move beyond this whole war business, and start empowering our ppl and taking care of all that is neglected we are going somewhere.
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Until you utopia government is in place, your "2 wrong" theory does not hold.
Sunnis should stop thinking that just because you are the majority, you can do whatever you want.
Hundreds of shias were being killed and what did the general sunni public say or do to pressure the government.
Your uncle and your friend who died ain't your mother, father, or wife and when you direct family gets massacred, I guarantee that you wont be feeling this way.
It is a credit to the shias that even with so much massacre, the shias have held back out of sake of unity.
Otherwise, bombing mosques are the traditions of the sunni forefathers that they have passed down to their children.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *
Until you utopia government is in place, your "2 wrong" theory does not hold.
Sunnis should stop thinking that just because you are the majority, you can do whatever you want.
** So what type of Government u want? The one Tehrek-e-Nifaz e Fiqah Jafaria wanted in late 70's when it was formed in a sunni majority country after getting aid from Khamini revilution? The root of recent bloodshed lies when such aparty was formed whose name say all.. how can fiqah Jafaria be imposed in a sunni majority country.. it can be in a shia majority Iran! did u condemned such an organization whose reaction was the Sipah-e-Sihaba... there is no difference between Sipah sahaba and shias who kill innocents.. their religion is hate.. u admit it or not**
Hundreds of shias were being killed and what did the general sunni public say or do to pressure the government.
Your uncle and your friend who died ain't your mother, father, or wife and when you direct family gets massacred, I guarantee that you wont be feeling this way.
It is a credit to the shias that even with so much massacre, the shias have held back out of sake of unity.
Otherwise, bombing mosques are the traditions of the sunni forefathers that they have passed down to their children.
** If u look closely hundreds of sunnis were also killed by terrosrist shias in same time.. closing eyes wont lead us anywhere.. shias bombed sunnis mosques all over Pakistan in alast 15-20yrs! I know many sunnis who were blown by those attacks in Lahore.. categorizingh all sunnis in one platform of thopse killers of Sipah Sahaba shows ur intent.. Can we say all shias are killers as some blow mosques and kill innocents? but we restrain and dont..
**
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I am appalled again at the fact that the attitude of Shias is to keep supporting terrorism and sectarian violence. First thing they need to do is to take a hard look at their own religious extremist elements. I agree that most of the time shias have been at the receiving end, but it does not change the fact that they have implemented offensive and retaliatory measures in the past, and are the initiators of this bloody conflict.
Only thing I am advocating is that law and justice should be the supreme authority in dealing with extremist zealots and thugs. This is exactly what’s taking place in Pakistan. Like any other benevolent I support action being taken against both the shias and sunni extremist organizations.
Frankly speaking, at the end, the innocents end up paying the price. The lawyers; the doctor;, the scholars; are not just shias or sunnis but our fellow country-men, our neighbors, our accomplices, and therefore I am staunchly against this perpetual cycle of violence. I don’t think majority of us support one over the other when it comes to killings driven by blind hatred, but what we need is to understand that there can be no winners, if we continue to support it in one form or another.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by outlaw: *
I am appalled again at the fact that the attitude of Shias is to keep supporting terrorism and sectarian violence. First thing they need to do is to take a hard look at their own religious extremist elements. I agree that most of the time shias have been at the receiving end, but it does not change the fact that they have implemented offensive and retaliatory measures in the past, and are the initiators of this bloody conflict.
[/QUOTE]
Well said. If violence is on both sides then both sides should claim responsibility. If one commits a crime. Hang him who cares if he is sunni shia or Ahmadi. A crime is a crime and if the police cant do their job, society has too.
Well CM. Talking idealistic stuff is easy. But the fact is that many elements in our establishment have and are supporting the sectarians. Otherwise how could Azam Tariq have become an MNA? Do you think there is no connection between him becoming MNA and his support to Jamali govt?
Show me one case of when a Sectarian leader has been arested and prosecuted for inciting violence on fellow Pakistanis.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
But the fact is that many elements in our establishment have and are supporting the sectarians. Otherwise how could Azam Tariq have become an MNA?
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How come a banned terrorist group like Tehriq-e-Jafria was allowed to rename itself, become part of the MMA, stand for elections and win seats in the assemblies?
that they have implemented offensive and retaliatory measures in the past, and are the initiators of this bloody conflict.................having such statment on the part of outlaw indicates to lack of historic information regarding secterian conflict........................the first very murder of haqnawaz jhangvi later proved to be committed by his own allies belonging to sheikh group , latter had been opponent to local political figure Amanullah Sial who happened to be shia. Sheikh exploited the art of speaking of Haqnawaz against shias hence bowing down their rival Amanalluh sial. They killed their allied Moulvi Haqnawaz and moblised masses against shias.....thiswas start of secterian killings but latter police invsetigation could prove sheikh to be the murderer of Haqnawaz.I hav put it fr record.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by outlaw: *
I am appalled again at the fact that the attitude of Shias is to keep supporting terrorism and sectarian violence. First thing they need to do is to take a hard look at their own religious extremist elements. I agree that most of the time shias have been at the receiving end, but it does not change the fact that they have implemented offensive and retaliatory measures in the past, and are the initiators of this bloody conflict.
[/QUOTE]
How does one being at the receiving end most of the time become initiators of conflict against a sunni majority country?
Your bigotry shows through when you classify my comments with the "attitudes of shias". How does my comment reflect upon all shias as you have claimed?
The bottomline is that it is your sunni and wahabhi schools that teach hatred against shias, leading to few shia retaliations. Do you want to count how many shias have been massacred vs how many sunnis? And how many were started by shias as opposed to a retaliation to a sunni crime?
Zia and his goons have been responsible for this crime. SM was created as a response to SS and LJ due to their massacre of the innocent. Where was the sunni public in condemning these acts by their fellow religious groups?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *
Until you utopia government is in place, your "2 wrong" theory does not hold.**
what is wrong is wrong, when we start putting conditions on it, we are thinking teh same way as teh idiots of siaph e sahaba and sipah e muhammad.
*Sunnis should stop thinking that just because you are the majority, you can do whatever you want. *
shias should stop thinking that just because they are in minority and have been preyed upon by an extremist groups, that their extremist groups are some heroes.
Hundreds of shias were being killed and what did the general sunni public say or do to pressure the government.
same could be said for shia's sayiong anything about their extremist groups killign sunnis.
Your uncle and your friend who died ain't your mother, father, or wife and when you direct family gets massacred, I guarantee that you wont be feeling this way.
as i indicated, i may not be feeling this way, but I am not going to take the law in my own hand. how many of the sipah e muhammad terrorists are there becuase their own family members were killed?
It is a credit to the shias that even with so much massacre, the shias have held back out of sake of unity.
casualties have been on both sides, I do not look at the actions of sipah sahaba as those indicative of sunnis at large or those of sipah e muhammad as those of shia's at large.
*Otherwise, bombing mosques are the traditions of the sunni forefathers that they have passed down to their children. *
of some sunni extremists yes, but not all sunnis, just like the killing sunnis by shias in pakistan and iran is the actions of a few loons including and not all sunnis. using words like "sunni forefathers" is as offensive as if I use the same for all shias.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gandalf: *
Your bigotry shows through when you classify my comments with the "attitudes of shias". How does my comment reflect upon all shias as you have claimed?
your bigotry shows thru when you attribute the actions of some hate groups to all sunnis.
Do you want to count how many shias have been massacred vs how many sunnis? And how many were started by shias as opposed to a retaliation to a sunni crime?
post the figures please..it will be interesting to see.
*Where was the sunni public in condemning these acts by their fellow religious groups? *
Does any group in Pakistan condemn actions until it affects them, whether its sectarian, provincial etc etc. as far as where was the sunni public..there were many, you maybe chose to ignore them.
Don’t ask me, ask Gen. Musharraf. 