I think you have the story close but not fully right.
Urban Punjab especially PML-N and even PML-Q lota supporters are generally sympathetic to the idea of the Taliban and even romanticize it. A lot of money from Deobandi masjids collected after khutbas does flow into Taliban and their affiliated groups.
However, the "stronghold" of the Taliban inside Punjab is in the Sariaki belt and in general from DGK all the way to Multan and Bahawalpur and even until Okara.
Why?
The so called "Punjabi" Taliban who supply many suicide bombers are essentially part of Sipah-e-Sahaba/Lashkar-e-Jhangvi groups who share ideological affinity with the Taliban because of their common Deobandi origins. In fact, Maulana Azam Tariq, Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Maulana Masood Azhar, Afghan Taliban commanders like Maulvi Obaidullah Akhund were all together at one time at the Binori town Madrassa in Karachi.
The moment these guys feel that Sarhad is in their pocket and decide to target Punjab, you can forget about areas south of Faisalabad, especially if you are Shia, Barlevi, Sufi or anyone who does not keep a long beard and keep their women in tents.
ehtasab from the text it appears the Qazi's are the pre-existing judges taken from the Federal system. Meaning the Government is responsible for them.
As for immunity I have not seen any mention of it in the text of the regulation.
JaanBaaz read what I posted. I would like to inquire to the sage knowledge you have on the text and your rather brilliant analysis of this "Shariah" text. Your political views on the future are verily worthy of Norstradumus himself. But irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
One can discuss the nature of the political fall out. But the problem most people have is they hear the word Shariah and freak out with even asking what the text says. It simply bias based on living in the west.
So if you have comments on the text itself and which aspects of the "Shariah" implemented is an issue of concern, please do let us know.
Sufi the terrorist was sent to jail after he sent thousands of young pashtun men to fight the american invasion and majority of those men, who had no training or concept of modern war were killed by American B-52 bombs. Sufi was jailed partially to protect him from angry parents of the pakistanis who died in afghanistan
is it true that in late 90 govt had a deal with the taliban and released sufi inreturn for paki soldiers?
Since there appears to be an IQ deficiency on your part, let me make it simple.
A group of thugs goes on a killing spree. Their modus ope***** is to enter into an “agreement” with their victims, and once the victim puts his name in ink, the thugs leverage their muscle power to “interpret” the agreement in any manner they want to.
This IS the exact issue many have with the “Nizam-e-Adl”. It simply does not matter what the text of the agreement says because the text is irrelevant.
The people who set the agenda for the Qazi courts are the Taliban
The people who decide whether Qazi court decisions can be appealed are the Taliban
The judges who preside over the Qazi courts have to be acceptable to the Taliban
These are not my political views or my chachoo’s views or your mammoo’s theories.
THESE ARE IRREFUTABLE FACTS
I’m sure you know all this and since you cannot argue about who wields the power, you stick to bull**** like “the text of Nizam-e-Adl guarantees rights” etc.
I’m sure the next girl who gets her butt whipped unfairly will be saved by djinns arising out of the “text of the agreement”
An if she is still alive after the Taliban treatment, maybe you can console her by saying “But the text of the agreement guarantees your rights”
I think you have the story close but not fully right.
Urban Punjab especially PML-N and even PML-Q lota supporters are generally sympathetic to the idea of the Taliban and even romanticize it. A lot of money from Deobandi masjids collected after khutbas does flow into Taliban and their affiliated groups.
However, the "stronghold" of the Taliban inside Punjab is in the Sariaki belt and in general from DGK all the way to Multan and Bahawalpur and even until Okara.
Why?
The so called "Punjabi" Taliban who supply many suicide bombers are essentially part of Sipah-e-Sahaba/Lashkar-e-Jhangvi groups who share ideological affinity with the Taliban because of their common Deobandi origins. In fact, Maulana Azam Tariq, Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Maulana Masood Azhar, Afghan Taliban commanders like Maulvi Obaidullah Akhund were all together at one time at the Binori town Madrassa in Karachi.
The moment these guys feel that Sarhad is in their pocket and decide to target Punjab, you can forget about areas south of Faisalabad, especially if you are Shia, Barlevi, Sufi or anyone who does not keep a long beard and keep their women in tents.
Agreed
The problem is restricted to Southern Punjab and not all of Punjab as you rightly point out here
Even before this Taliban trouble started, most Sunni-Shia fasadat happened around Jhang and Multan areas. Most of these halwa maulvis hail from places like Faisalbad and Multan etc.
The people of Lahore and Rawal Pindi etc. are not conservative (well the vast majority isn't)
For your information, Swatis too were as liberal or "roshan khyal" as Karchiites despite being in NWFP.
ANP used to win there regularly.
Now look at how long it took for them to welcome Taliban shariat?
Whether Karachi or DG Khan, the Taliban tactics are the same - first kill moderate leaders and then terrorize the locals using beheadings and suicide bombings and soon everyone will be willing for a "peace deal"
And BTW you are wrong, most people aren't apathetic - they are too scared to talk about it. Fear and dread are contagious.
Well I was not talking just about Swat but that entire belt - NWFP, Parts of Baluchistan and Tribal areas.
Even their 'roshan khayali' is relative.
I don't need to elaborate much here but the way 'most' people of NWFP (even educated families) treat female members of their family is very different from how educated Punjabis, Sindhis or Urdu-Speaking people treat their women. These people are just very conservative in their outlook. There are obviously exceptions to this rule but I am talking about the vast majority here.
And I accept we have quite conservative-minded people in Southern Punjab too
And no ''roshan khayali' does not equal 'nangapan' for me
It does state that the Qazi courts shall seek guidance from the Quran and the Hadis. However they can not be contrary to Pakistan Federal law.
Could you tell me where in the regulation it says that? its a lot of text to read through, I couldnt find anything that limited Qazi sahab's judgement of sharia to within the bounds of Pakistani federal law or even supreme court shariah bench rulings. and when you say contrary, thats an imprecise word that can be equivocated on. For example, both Pakistan Federal Law and shariah as interpreted by Qazi using his understanding of Quran/Hadis/Ijma/Qiyas/reknowned scholars such as Muslim Khan would regard robbery as a crime. One prescribes jail time, another prescribes cutting off the hand. Does this count as being contrary?
I know that the regulation lists certain laws that will still hold in the area, but I dont know the following:
Is that list exhaustive? How much of federal and provincial laws does that cover? Why the need to list specific acts and ordinances if it is basically the entire set of federal and provincial law?
In the event of conflict between qazi's view of sharia and existing federal law, what is supreme?
See this text:
[quote]
(2) All the laws applicable to the said area, including the laws mentioned in sub‑paragraph (1), shall so apply subject to such exceptions and modifications as specified in this Regulation.
[/quote]
Given that one modification is that Qazi sahab can seek recourse to Quran/Sunah/Ijma/Qiyas/Reputable religious personality when deciding matters and apparently can make exceptions and modifications accordingly, does it not mean that Federal Law is infact not supreme?
grin By all means I should get a law degree and specialize in Pakistani Law to answer your questions.
Is that list exhaustive? No clue. When you find out do let me know.
How much of federal and provincial laws does that cover? The list is provided. You want me to draw it in crayon for you?
Why the need to list specific acts and ordinances if it is basically the entire set of federal and provincial law? From my limited knowledge because not all Federal Laws of Pakistan apply to FATA. And you can see by the regulation it includes FATA.
In the event of conflict between qazi's view of sharia and existing federal law, what is supreme?
Now I have to act as a judge on top being a legal expert on the legal documentation of the government. On this question you shall have to ask a proper lawyer.
I was waiting for you to quote that paragraph. Please inform me which parts of the regulation changes the federal laws listed in Schedule I and II.
You and everybody gets so pissed off when I refer to you as expat-Pakistanis. This is why. Confused? Here I will draw it in crayon. The Pakistan government has hundreds of lawyers who draft agreements like these on a regular basis. They are hired and work specifically to draft such regulations and international ones, such as FTAs, PTAs and such. They actively compete with better educated, better trained individuals from the EU, US and such others, but our interests are always secured in almost every avenue of bi-lateral and multi-lateral negotiations.
You are obviously of the opinion they made a mistake. That is where the arrogance and hubris that I despise so much on this website comes into play. Sweetheart you think you know better.
Oh so there is nothing wrong with the regulation itself but rather the personal opinion each person holds which is subjective in nature?
There is a saying - "It is much better to keep quiet and let people suspect you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubts"
Subjective - is something which changes person to person.
The FACT that the Taliban have always reneged on written terms is NOT subjective
The FACT that Sufi Mohammad and TTP have said that "we will not be subject to Federal laws that we deem un-Islamic" is NOT subjective.
The FACT that Sufi Mohammad has said that his Qazi courts decision are final and there shall be no appeal to any Pakistani court is NOT subjective.
The FACT that TTP spokesman have gone on TV and said openly that the Qazi courts top priority is to pass "death sentences" on people identified by his group, is NOT subjective.
The FACT that TTP had made a written promise to disarm after imposition of Nizam-e-Adl and then publicly reneged on that promise is NOT subjective.
Again, you would do yourself a favor by not making stupid comments that are contradicted by objective statements from the horses' mouth, all recorded on TV for all to see.
The paper agreement is worth as much as the toilet paper in the house.
What Swatis will be subject to is WHATEVER TTP decides they should be subject to, regardless of what the agreement says. "Nizam-e-Adl" is just a cover for "Nizam-e-Qatl"
No, just answer to the extent that you can, if you are claiming there is no contradiction.
Fair enough. Lets assume all laws that apply to other reasons or that used to apply previously apply now.
Given that you said: I have read the text of the regulation and I can see no where, where it states that federal laws are being over-written, or that a new cadre of judges is being set up or that laws will now be inforced from the Taliban point of view.
One would assume that you would know whether or not federal laws are being overriden and whether or not in fact new laws will be enforced from the Taliban point of view. My mistake in thinking you have some desire to be coherent.
‘changes’ is not the text. Exceptions and modifications are allowed for, which can be made given the power given to the Qazi to make decisions based on Shariah.
Nobody was pissed off yar. We were just yanking your chain given that you were possibly the only person who embodied the traits of being expat and having foreign passports that you were ranting against.
Get over it. I have nothing against expat Pakistanies or people with foreign passports otherwise.
Thats very good, I have complete confidence in the legal competance of our people.
I am not of the opinion that the lawyers made a mistake. I am of the opinion that the Government did in allowing for a set of laws to be used as basis for judgements by Qazies that do not come from the elected representatives. Specifically referring to the fact that the Qazies can apparently interpret determine Islamic law by themselves, instead of these things being debated by federal institutions (elected assemblies, sharia bench of the supreme court, etc).
As far as my confidence in our lawyers is concerned, rest assured, should I ever need legal representation I am going with our very competant Pakistani lawyers rather than my own limited legal skills.
the following article is an interesting take on the issue.. and in line with most peoples’ views in this thread i.e. its not the regulation that is the problem, rather, it’s implementation.
Hysteria, intolerance and ignorance are certainly not solely the hallmark of the Taliban, as I discovered last week when I defended the actual Nizam-e-Adl Regulation on television in terms of its content. Immediately, choice abuses – ranging from comments about by girth to the need for me to seek employment in Swat – were unleashed through the internet by the ignorant, hysterical and intolerant self-appointed “liberals”. It was all these apologists for western “secularism” could do to stop themselves from actually telling my spouse that I was wajib-ul-qatl in their “liberal” eyes! But then I have a thick political skin, having survived the Left-JI alliance at Quaid-i-Azam University for 16 years!
More important, I firmly believe that there is nothing adverse in the Adl Regulation that was first agreed to in 1994 and then again in 1999, but was never implemented, and to which the ANP has only made two very positive additions. The first is section B and C in Article 1 providing for the Supreme Court and High Court benches; and, the second are Article 8 and 10 dealing with timelines for FIR registrations, challan presentations and court decisions. Beyond these, there is nothing new or discriminatory relating to women. Article 14:2 protects the rights of non-Muslims. So there is nothing that has been included in this at the behest of the TTP.
Also, Schedule I gives a list of 94 laws of Pakistan that remain in force within this Adl Regulation, while offences in Schedule III, dealing with offences punishable under the Pakistan Penal Code and "pertaining to deviations of licenses and permits under relevant laws applicable to the said area, are to be the exclusive purview of Executive Magistrates. Appointments for Illaqa Qazis are also to be made from judicial officers of NWFP.
Perhaps the most crucial piece of the regulation is Article 9:1 which states that for proceedings to be dealt with in accordance with Shariah: "The Qazi and Executive Magistrate shall follow the established principles of exposition and interpretation of Quran Majeed and Sunna-e-Nabvi (PBUH) and, for this purpose, shall also consider the expositions and opinions of recognised Fuqaha of Islam. And let us remember that we have a controversial Hadood Law already in operation across Pakistan and every time the police registers’ a case they can do it either under this or the traditional law.
It is not the Adl regulation that is the real issue but the inability of the government to establish its writ and even enforce this regulation properly. In fact, even the agreement it made with Sufi Mohammad is not being enforced in terms of disarming the Taliban and making them live up to their own commitments in terms of accepting the writ of the state and so on. If the TTP leadership is reneging on its commitments and contravening the law of the land as well as committing contempt of the higher judiciary, the state needs to act. One man’s public decrying of the Constitution, the legislature and the judiciary cannot go unchallenged by the state. Otherwise, as elsewhere in the country where feudals and tribals take advantage of a diminishing writ of the state to carry out excesses against the oppressed, especially women, the Taliban will also continue to take advantage of this vacuum. The issue is political and the provincial government, with the backing of the full power of the state, needs to assert its writ to implement the law and protect its people. The reason why the ANP government’s deal with Sufi Mohammad is being seen as capitulation by so many within Pakistan and outside is because the ANP seems to have taken dialogue and negotiation to mean abdication of state authority.
Unfortunately, the manner in which the state dithered over the regulation provided time for the TTP to gather strength and fill a political and legal void that prevailed in Swat in the interim period; and the provincial government’s delay in implementing the regulation after its signing seemed to show a lack of political determination to be assertive once again. The “devil” so to speak lies in the perceived lack of a will on the part of the government, not the regulation itself. So it is ignorance on the part of the critics to decry the Nizam-e-Adl Regulation as it confuses different issues and only serves the cause not only of the Taliban but also of the other major threat confronting us – that is, the US, whose policies have now become part of our terrorism problem, rather than its solution.
The problem in Pakistan is one of a long-standing corrupt state that is unable to deliver justice and security to its people so that non-state actors are able to fill the void – as the Taliban did in Afghanistan. The writ of the state has always been challenged by the powerful to oppress the marginalised people; but now the Taliban are challenging the writ of the state and appealing to these marginalised people seeking judicial and socio-economic relief. There are many fronts on which the state has to act and with determination but it can only do so with the support of its people – not merely US dollars. In fact the latter are a hindrance as they distort national agendas and priorities. Even more seriously, they create a hostile operational environment for the state of Pakistan which is seen merely as acting as a surrogate for the US. In order to alter the operational environment into a positive one, the Pakistani leadership has to distance itself from the US, including closing the Bandari drone base handed over to the US in Balochistan.
A successful strategy against militancy using religious extremism as a tool, needs this favourable environment. From here a three-pronged strategy has to be implemented: One, asserting the Nizam-i-Adl effectively in Swat – and this is neither a parallel legal system nor unconstitutional as there are specific constitutional arrangements for PATA (provincially administered tribal area) – while taking to task all those who continue to defy the state institutions and especially those who refuse to abide by their own agreement with the ANP government. Here the Federal government must give full support to the provincial government, including paramilitary support. But the army needs to be withdrawn so it can undertake tasks for which it is trained – which does not include fighting against one’s own people. The British army could not do it successfully in Northern Ireland, to cite just one example. The US and Pakistan’s detractors are busy in undermining the professional standing and morale of the Pakistani security forces and intelligence agencies through insidious propaganda while the Pakistani leadership seems directionless in terms of a cohesive indigenous policy on combating militancy and extremism.
Second, as stated earlier in these columns, the madressas have to be tackled across Pakistan as they are potential sleeper cells for militants since they comprise the marginalised population. These institutions need to be brought into the mainstream by involving the private sector (with tax breaks etc.) rather than foreign money, through an “adopt a madressa” programme with financial inputs, mainstream education and employment opportunities. There are thousands of madressas with no resources and under 500 students that could be brought in first. Otherwise, we will find these being overrun by militant extremist groups. The process has already begun with the Jaish-e-Mohammad armed men storming into a Sunni seminary and taking it over in Bahawalpur.
Third, the mosques need local ownership and control. This is enforceable in the urban centres where each locality should have control and ownership of the local mosque through a group of local elders who select their prayer leader or custodian of the mosque. We claim that most Pakistanis are ‘moderate’ Muslims leaning towards Sufism but we have to reclaim our religious space in our own country. That cannot be done by decrying everything with an “Islamic” label, but rather by engaging in ijtihed and what better place to begin than the local mosque, where women should also have their own space? If we take control of our lives at the micro level, with supportive legislation from the state, perhaps our leaders will have the courage to reclaim the sovereignty they are losing to the US and the militant extremists.
well if Islam would have had been practically implemented after independence as it came into being on the name of Islam then not any stupid so called molvi extremist like taliban ignorant would have dared to do this and no enemy like america and nato forces and india would have dared to make full use of situation to cash it. its our own ignorance and we are still not mending ourselves.
With hindsight, I think it was a GOOD idea to have the bill passed through the parliament, for the following reasons:
It does not alianate ANP. We need to fight Taliban at some point and we don't need a 'naraz' government in NWFP.
It takes away moral ground for Taliban to continue fighting. If they do, they would loose soft corners or alleged soft corners for them in 'moderate' pakistanis. We have seen that through recent statements from PPP and PML(N) people after their continued insurgency.
We even saw people like Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman condemning taliban. It is alleged that madarrassas run under his influence were the original producers of Taliban.
It softened the preception among a huge number of pakistanis that Pakistan has become 'amrika ka pithhu'. This is important because a blank cheque approach for american forces would be detrimental for the country. It is next to impossible that Pakistani and American interests coincide on operational decisions on how to control the insurgency.
It sent a message to US that they should not expect a back bent Pakistan at every command they give. The bill was passed by almost all parties giving the signal that the alternative leadership in Pakistan would not support USA in every decision even if they did decide to change government here.
It sent a message to the armed forces of pakistan that their incompetence has led us to this shame.
^ why i am almsot surprised with your synthesis of the issue. Usually on gupistan the main line is taken out of US campaign, shariah law ah cave mentality, ah inequalities, ah the end of civilisation ; where as previously pakistanis and swatis especially were enjoying the fruits of federal law and its rather splendid implementation. perhaps the amrika ka pithu is a truly genuine worry.
