Sex education.

shezi my love,

How old are these "kids of the forum" that you are referring to?? Sex education in the US and I am presuming most Western countries including Down Under where you are, is offered for the first time as early as in the Elementary School level.

Also, if the "kids of the forum" know the FOUR letter word you are so at ease with using over Int'l media - they DO know what this post is all about!!

AND most importantly, if the topic is so "Ridiculous" why honor it with your naive innocent presence??!!

[This message has been edited by PhulanWakilan (edited May 04, 1999).]

Dear PhulanWakilan:
I, myself, tried to avoid writing in this thread as much as I could but last line of your answer made me write, not on the topic but on the double standards of the Moderators/organizers.
I remember a young member started a topic similar to this but it was locked/removed because he put his case under the Islamic education. He asked the similar questions and he wanted to know what Islam says about this, he was forcefully advised to move to the religious section and after few weeks, this thread was started. What is this, hypocrisy or stereotyping?

msaqibj,

Hmm!! I hear you.

I have been on this forum for quite some time now and those who have gotten to know me well know that I try to be as "objective"/impartial as possible.

So to your post, all I can say is that may be it was closed because it had a Religious heading AND since it was asking for the ISLAMIC point of view and not two cents from the rest of us, who for the most part provide our secular/modern/self-made views it was directed to the Appropriate Forum??

Dear Shezi,

To answer your question, that is why Ms. Kashmirigirl has posted this question in very subtle words. So that if there are any youngsters viewing this thread, they know how to approach the question. Whom to go for the answers etc. etc.

It is a very serious topic well worthy of discussion. With views such as not to discuss it in the open has managed to keep it a taboo for very many years. How long can we hide it behind the walls of ignorance? Diseases such as AIDS are the result of such naive thinking. Child abuse (from parents, siblings and uncles and aunts) and unwanted pregnancies can only be prevented by educating the younger generation. Incidently, my eight year old is reading my message and quizzing me on this topic. Let's try to be a little more liberal and idscuss an issue as adults.

Rab Rakha


o! you are so nice you did n't remove me reply . iam so happy , so thank full etc
i guess this is what you wanted to see is n't it ?
i do n'r really give........ any thing .
dear PW you are convincing but still i do n't think that this is write place for discussing this . and i just know one kid here SALMAN i hope you do n't mind this(salman)] he is only 13

do you think this thread can have +ive impact on him .
this article is like watching a CONDOM AD on tv with family .

i know non of you is gonna agree but again who is gonna give a .......
and again just becas you guys have writte long replies does n't justify this topic being posted here by a stupid moderator .

Shezi

It is unfortunate that you disagree with the topic of this thread. As Pulan Wakilin stated the previous sex in Islam thread was closed, because it had the focus on the Islamic viewpoint of sex. If you look under religion, the thread has continued there for some time.

As you can see from the above responses not everyone "here" is a kid. This is a site for people around the world, from varying age groups and background not just dessi college kids. I don’t see what harm there is in seeing what and how others have handled the issue. In addition there is no bann on topics unless the are obviously explicit or pornographic. Which isn’t the case here….the topic has been discussed very carefully and politely. If it wasn’t then….that’s why this is a moderated forum.

AS for younger children, their parents should be watching what they do. There is much more available for children to read and see on the net and everywhere, mom and pop need to be actively involved in their upbringing.

Now about the question on my experience…it was ignore the topic at home but I was signed up to go to all the school courses on the subject…it saved my parents the embarrassment. THE funny thing is in my younger brother case, my father actually did sit down and explain the "birds and the bees" to him…when he was about 11. My brother came out with a very nice attitude about sex, relationships and the biology of the issue.

I would agree with shirin and ghalib parents should discuss the topic with their children….they can then give their child an impression about the subject from their own cultural and religious background. Jat teachers aren’t going to do that.

Also as nova mentioned, there is rampant sexual abuse of children in dessi cultures….children could only benefit from feeling they can discuss anything with their parents.

[This message has been edited by kashmirigirl (edited May 08, 1999).]

Kashmirigirl I agree with you.
There is nothing wrong in this thread.

Dear member Shezi

Inspite of your rude and crude behaviour and your disrespect for not only the other members of this forum but the moderator as well, we have left your membership intact. For now.

dear kasmiriGAl
i have n’t changed my thinking yet i know u are n’t interested in that either

but yeah your brothers case is very interesting
plus i can see that i was very rude in my first post but as far as the “stupid” thing is concerned you can take it in a friendly way like you call a friend
if i call you idiot now you should n’t take
that person i know that i look like DH in some of post but iam a very easy going person
in real life
and dear admin
is that a threat

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

<8888888

'

[This message has been edited by Rubiya Nur (edited July 30, 2000).]

** Wendy Shalit, a 23-year-old author ** , argues that the best sex education for children is ** no sex education at all ** . I've been through sex education classes myself, and I agree with her position. After all I'm pretty certain nobody taught my parents anything about sex, and they had me. The same can be said for others born in earlier generations - they didn't seem to require instruction manuals, and they were also effective in avoiding harm (sexually transmitted disease, early pregnancy, rape). I think Shalit makes a pretty strong case. It's a bit long but worth the read.

"All across North America sex education instructors are doling out ammunition under the banner of enlightenment.

Sex education instructors in Massachusetts, New York and Toronto teach kids "Condom Line-Up", where boys and girls are given pieces of cardboard to describe sex with a condom, such as "sexual arousal," "erection", "leave room at tip," and than kids have to arrange themselves in the proper sequence.

New Jersey's Family Life program begins its instruction about birth control, masturbation, abortion, and puberty in kindergarten. Ten years ago, when the program was first instituted there was some discomfort because according to the coordinator of the program, Claire Scholz, "some of our kindergarten teachers were shy - they didn't like talking about scrotums and vulvas." But in time, she reports, "they tell me its not different from talking about an elbow." In another Sex-Ed class in Colorado, all the girls were told to pick a boy in the class and practice putting a condom on his finger. Schools in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, get a head start on AIDS instruction, teaching it in second grade, four years earlier than state requirements. In Orange Country, Florida, second graders are taught about birth, death, and drug abuse and sixth graders role play appropriate ways of showing affection. "I think that's too young," said one parent Steve Smith. He would prefer his kids to "be learning about reading and writing." New York City Board of Education guidelines instruct that kindergartners are to be taught "the difference between transmissible and non-transmissible diseases; the terms HIV and AIDS; [and] that AIDS is hard to get." This we are informed fulfills "New York State Learner Outcomes: 1,2."

And yet, as they confidently promote all this early sex education, our school officials are at loss when it comes to dealing with the new problem of sodomy-on-the-playground. Its hard to keep up with all the sexual assault cases that plague our public schools in any given month. Take just one reported in the New York Daily News in 1997:

  • "Four Bronx boys - the oldest 9 - ganged up on a 9 year old class mate and sexually assaulted her in a schoolyard, police charged yesterday...[The girls mother] said she is furious with Principal Anthony Padilla, who yesterday told parents the attack never happened...The girls parents and sisters are also outraged that when the traumatized third grader told a teacher, she was merely advised to wash out her mouth and was given a towel wipe." *

The associated link between the disenchanting of sex and increased sexual brutality among children works like this: if our children are raised to believe, in the words of that New Jersey kindergarten teacher, that talking about the most private things is "no different from talking about an elbow," then they are that much more likely to see nothing wrong in certain kinds of sexual violence. What's really so terrible, after all, in making someone touch or kiss your elbow?

At my school sex education was given in kindergarten to ninth grade, but I was excused from fourth grad on. The first time I was conscious of any real sexual desire was the summer after ninth grade, about age fourteen or so. One shouldn't extrapolate from my own case, which may be abnormal, but generally speaking I'm struck by the way my generations sex education ended around the time that natural desire usually begins. I guess the theory is that this way we know everything before we start, and can do it properly, but I think what happens instead is that we end up starting before we feel, because we think its expected of us. Usually when adults start shoving condoms in our faces, we would much prefer to giggle...

The natural embarrassment sex education seeks so prissily to erode - "Now remember, boys and girls, there is absolutely nothing to giggle about!" - may point to a far richer understanding of sex than do our most explicit sex manuals. Children now are urged to overcome their "inhibitions" before they have a clue what an inhibition means. Yet embarrassment is actually a wonderful thing signaling that something very strange or very significant is going on, that some boundary is being threatened - either by you or by others. Without embarrassment kids are weaker: more vulnerable to pregnancy, disease and heartbreak...

...The few studies that show that instruction on condom use changes the behavior of students conclude it is only likely to make them more sexually active. This cult of taking responsibility for your sexuality is essentially a call to action...

Its really not very complicated why so many kids are getting pregnant these days, now that we have so much sex education on top of a wholly sexualized culture. It's because sex is not a big deal to them and because they think this is what they are expected to do. They are just trying to be normal kids, to please people...and prove that they are "sexually healthy."

Were not flocking to Jane Austen movies because we want the facts, but because we're sick of having the facts shoved in our faces all the time. One is entitled to imagine that there might be something more to hope for than all this dreary crudeness - this view of sex as something autonomous and cut off from obligation, weather familial obligation or obligation to one's 'sex partner' (as the locution has it).

So in a funny way, the facts about sex conceal the truth." (Wendy Shalit)

Achtung ;)

Today 75% of American teens have sex before high school graduation.
In New York 54,000 teens, ages 15-19 become pregnant each year.
A 1994 Rhode Island survey of teenagers asked whether a man has the right to have sexual intercourse with a woman without her consent, 80% said its ok if the couple were married, 70% said its ok if they planned on getting married, 61% said its ok if the couple had prior sexual relations, and 65% of boys said its acceptable to 'force sex' on a person after dating 6 months, 25% of boys said its ok to force sex on a date, if you've spent money on her. * Has sex education failed these teenagers, if you asked another generations teenagers the same questions how would they answer * , I wonder...

Achtung, it depends what kind of sex education you are talking about.
Our children get a ceratin type of "sex education" everyday, whether we want it or not. Television and other media send subtle and not so subtle messages all the time. No child can grow un in our society without any sex education at all...... it just can't happen! Children are already getting a very distorted type of sex education, whether we want it or not. Parents are required to put these things in perspective and clarify misunderstandings, in a way suitable to the age of the child. Only a parent is capable of judging the ability of their child to understand some things. They should do this "job" as part of their parenting, informally and casually, as time goes on and making use of the right moments - i.e. when they get questions - to answer them honestly and at the level of comprehension of their child.
My main point is that there are values connected with the biological act. Biology without the right values produces people who don't understand or appreciate the values.

[This message has been edited by Shirin (edited May 09, 1999).]

I agree with you Shirin, perhaps its not 'sexual education' per se, which I find flawed, but rather formalized sexual education and the manner in which any type of sexual education (formal or informal) is implemented and the 'cavalier' attitude towards sex, which it instills in children.

I think the attitude's prevalent in our mass media are a reflection of our newly acquired 'cavalier' attitude towards matters pertaining to sex. This 'cavalier' attitude has evolved over the last four decades. In the last two it has perhaps been shaped most extensively. In this period of time we have witnessed what Wendy Shalit calls, "the disenchanting of sex". Sex is no longer something mysterious, something acquired through a process of love and romance, something which once was so elusive it would make children (often even adults) blush in embarrassment, its rather become normalized to the point of losing its value and becoming a means to an end. Even more frighteningly so, we have become so 'cavalier' about sex, that in the last two decades we have witnessed a rise in sexual crimes - from the playground to the workplace. Shalit quotes "where the Victorians sensual longing was veiled, ours is aggressive to the point of violence" (James Atlas, 1997).

Formalized sexual education has contributed to the 'disenchanting of sex'. Its initial aim was to counter the damage done during the 70's sexual revolution - to ironically * curb * the growing 'cavalier' attitudes of American's towards sex and counter the growth in sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancies. But with the arrival and initiation of 'sexual education' classes, we have seen an increase in both sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancies, along with date rape, stalking, sexual harassment and emotional distress resulting from heartbreak (after sexual encounters). Our attitudes toward sex have become even more 'cavalier' than prior to the 1970s. Sexual education classes may not be the sole cause of the increase in such crimes and ills, but they seem to have contributed to the 'disenchanting of sex' and solidified a 'cavalier' attitude about sex - an attitude which if absent in our children demonstrates (at least we are told) an 'unhealthy attitude towards sex'.

We are taught that if we are unable to openly discuss matters pertaining to sex, often out of embarrassment, we have an * unhealthy attitude towards sex * . Yet this embarrassment, in the words of Shalit "is actually a wonderful thing signaling that something very strange or very significant is going on, that some boundary is being threatened - either by you or by others. Without embarrassment kids are weaker: more vulnerable to pregnancy, disease and heartbreak." In-formalized sexual education taught in the privacy of ones home, for Pakistanis, is virtually non-existent. Because most Pakistanis (at least that I know) are 'embarrassed' to talk to their children about sex and in the same token, children are 'embarrassed' to talk to their parents about sex. I would argue that its not that we have * "unhealthy attitudes towards sex" * if we're unable to discuss sexual matter to our children in a 'cavalier' fashion, but quite the opposite, we are acting on virtues of 'modesty', which are perfectly normal.

Yet this still leaves us in a dilemma, over the education of our children. If sexual education is a mode of equipping our children with tools to deal with a 'sexualized culture' and parents are too embarrassed to teach their children about the birds and the bees and formalized sexual education classes offer an alternative which purports such a 'cavalier' attitude about sex that it in fact encourages children to jump in bed at the earliest opportunity, who is left to teach our children. Perhaps our children don't need to be taught about sex (at least not in the fashion that its taught in public schools) - they don't need * yet another source * discussing matters pertaining to sex in a 'cavalier' manner. Perhaps, the only education parents should provide their child about sex is the virtues of abstinence. Parents should take an active role in their child's life, countering the forces of the media and friends - the two sources left to educate their children about 'sex'. Both of which exert tremendous pressure on children to engage in sex at an early age, to overcome their inhibitions and embrace a 'healthy attitude about sex'. I agree with you, as you put it
*
"[Parents] should do this "job" as part of their parenting, informally and casually, as time goes on and making use of the right moments - i.e. when they get questions - to answer them honestly and at the level of comprehension of their child."

*
Ultimately (in my opinion), parents should make it clear that 'a healthy attitude about sex' is one of 'abstinence'.

Achtung ;)

"O shame where is thy blush!" Hamlet