** The religious discussion has been split off to a new thread, which is now in the Religion Forum**
http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132020
So... the war against Saddam is over. I guess now we're just a third party in the Iraqi Civil War.
The people in the Arab world that seem to be the most unhappy about this arrest do not appear to me to be Saddam supporters per se. What aggravates them is that it was the US that accomplished this. They are further aggravated that this lion turned out to be a cowardly lion who did not fight or resist during his capture in any way. Once again, they witness the impotence of an Arab ruler against the mighty US. His capture, especially in this fashion, wounds their machismo and the vision of themselves they wish to perpetuate.
Although the Arab world knows Saddam to be an out of control tyrant, there was nevertheless a cultural respect and admiration for him born out of his supposed strength, unwillingness to bow before the UN or the US or Israel. Had he died in a battle along with a 100 fedayeen supporters taking out dozens of US troops, the ego and machismo would have been satisfied. They could have said “Thank God he’s gone” but still been filled with a sense of pride of the fighter going down in combat. Although so many criticisized the US for killing Saddam’s sons, there death in battle sated the ego of the Arab world.
Having Saddam emerge from a hole in the ground infested with mice and rats, looking like a bum, pleading for his life without firing a shot absolutely destroys all perceptions of his strength in the Arab world. And this image merely demonstrates their own weaknesses in fearing him and failing to take him down themselves.
Already, Saddam appears to be squeeling on his cohorts to try to save his own pathetic life.
** "The U.S. military said hours later intelligence from Saddam and documents in his briefcase helped U.S.-led occupation forces capture of two key wanted figures.
“It has led to the capture of two important men,” Captain Jason Beck of the U.S. 1st Armored Division told Reuters, adding one was a senior figure associated with Saddam. **
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3996477&pageNumber=0
As more and more Saddam supporters go down because Saddam ratted them out, I’d guess the machismo meter in the Arab world will drop a great deal more. And the blame and anger for this will be directed at the good old USA.
Exactly my point.
I think at minimum he should have been portrayed as a foe worthy of respect.
~ even if he wasn’t.
Who here submits to medical checkups in front of a camera? Thats not done.
He was being searched.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Exactly my point.
I think at minimum he should have been portrayed as a foe worthy of respect.
~ even if he wasn't.
Who here submits to medical checkups in front of a camera? Thats not done.
He was being searched.
[/QUOTE]
AAG: Pardon me for saying so but that's nonsense. You think maybe we should have staged a shootout on some Hollywood backlot and superimposed images of Saddam firing his six-shooter during his capture?
I'd wage my dollars against your donuts that virtually every minute of Saddam's existence is being video taped, if nothing else to provide evidence that he is not being torured or mistreated by American troops. He should be thankful we let him shower and shave and gave him a decent haircut.
I think your attitude is incredibly paternalistic and is akin to saying "we should not let the Arab masses know the truth about how pathetic Saddam is. They can't handle the truth."
You don't heal, You don't get better, You don't succeed in business, life or politics if you don't get the truth and face it. The Arab masses need to face the truth that Saddam is not and was not worthy of respect and admiration. They need to know that brutal wannabe dictators are nothing more than pathetic little cowards who will lead them to shame despair. They need to look elsewhere for their heros and their manhood.
did iran make any comment regarding his arrest?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by batameez: *
did iran make any comment regarding his arrest?
[/QUOTE]
I believe they're producing a dossier on the his crimes, should he be tries in an international criminial court.
About saddam, do the US consider him as a POW? If they do, then have they not violated the famous geneva convention of parading POW on TV?
Saddam represents Arabs and Muslims no more than Bin Laden does. These are men who have alienated the majority of the world including Arabs and Muslims. The defeat of these men do not equate a defeat over Arabs or Islam but over tyranny and terror. This is a victory for Arabs and Muslims and even bigger than that it is a victory for humanity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sweetpie: *
Let's grow up already and learn NOT to hurl insults at any particular nationality. We're all proud of our country of birth or where we were raised. There is no need to insult anyone. Stick to the discussion topic or don't participate in the forum at all. You only make yourselves look like fools with your immature comments. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]
It's not a question of insulting a particular nationality. I am discussing a culture here that attributes great importance to the perceived quality of strength and the exercise of power. At one and the same time, Saddam was recognized as a brutal dictator oppressing the Iraqi people and threatening his Arab neighbors BUT admired and respected primarily because he was perceived as the one Arab leader who was strong enough to defy the UN, the US and anyone else in the world. His defiance instilled a certain sense of pride and fed into the machismo mystique deemed highly important in the Arab world.
If you think I am insulting a particular nationality by commenting upon this, I'm sorry. I think you ought to be more insulted and concerned about this cultural mindset than you are about someone bringing it up for discussion. One of the news broadcasts I was listening to had a guest who read a snippet or two from commentary in Al Jazeera that basically made this point exceedingly well. The fact that it was the US that captured Saddam under the circumstances they did constitutes a real blow to the admiration and respect component of how certain people viewed Saddam. It shakes the very foundations of the belief structures ingrained in them in their culture.
"I am Saddam Hussein. Let's negotiate" as he crept out of a rodent infested hole in the ground looking like a street person is the very last way that the Arab world saw the end of Saddam occuring. There is nothing admirable, nothing strong, nothing to respect in the way his end came. And his failing is personalized as their own failings and it hurts. And when people get hurt, they get angry. And my guess is that, for a period of time, that anger will be directed toward the person who brought this failing into the open (i.e. the US) rather than the fallen hero himself.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by humhaipakistani: *
I believe they're producing a dossier on the his crimes, should he be tries in an international criminial court.
About saddam, do the US consider him as a POW? If they do, then have they not violated the famous geneva convention of parading POW on TV?
[/QUOTE]
hmm ...
Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive
I think this confirms why Saddam looked/acted the way he did.
Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive
DEBKAfile Special Report
December 14, 2003, 6:55 PM (GMT+02:00)
A number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13:
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The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks.
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The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period
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The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed – 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces.
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Saddam looked beaten and hungry.
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Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used.
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The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks – it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering.
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And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him (a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward)– but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world.
According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner.
After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the $25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal Talabani’s Kurdish PUK militia.
These circumstances would explain the ex-ruler’s docility – described by Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as “resignation” – in the face of his capture by US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have greeted them with relief.
From Gen. Sanchez’s evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the negotiations with Saddam’s abductors to move in close and capture him on their own account, for three reasons:
A. His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans. No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he trusted, just as in the war.
B. It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own life and may have kept him sedated.
C. During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla activity declined markedly – especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region – in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni Triangle.
The next thing to watch now is not just where and when Saddam is brought to justice for countless crimes against his people and humanity - Sanchez said his interrogation will take “as long as it takes – but what happens to the insurgency. Will it escalate or gradually die down?
An answer to this, according to DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources, was received in Washington nine days before Saddam reached US custody.
It came in the form of a disturbing piece of intelligence that the notorious Lebanese terrorist and hostage-taker Imad Mughniyeh, who figures on the most wanted list of 22 men published by the FBI after 9/11, had arrived in southern Iraq and was organizing a new anti-US terror campaign to be launched in March-April 2004, marking the first year of the American invasion.
For the past 21 years, Mughniyeh has waged a war of terror against Americans, whether on behalf of the Hizballah, the Iranian Shiite fundamentalists, al Qaeda or for himself. The Lebanese arch-terrorist represents for the anti-American forces in Iraq an ultimate weapon.
Saddam’s capture will not turn this offensive aside; it may even bring it forward.
For Israel, there are three lessons to be drawn from the dramatic turn of events in Iraq:
First, An enemy must be pursued to the end and if necessary taken captive. The Sharon government’s conduct of an uncertain, wavering war against the Palestinian terror chief Yasser Arafat stands in stark contrast to the way the Americans have fought Saddam and his cohorts in Iraq and which has brought them impressive gains.
Second, Israel must join the US in bracing for the decisive round of violence under preparation by Mughniyeh, an old common enemy from the days of Beirut in the 1980s. Only three weeks ago, DEBKAfile’s military sources reveal, the terrorist mastermind himself was seen in south Lebanon in surveillance of northern Israel in the company of Iranian military officers. With this peril still to be fought, it is meaningless for Israelis to dicker over the Geneva Accord, unilateral steps around the Middle East road map, or even the defensive barrier.
Third, Certain Israeli pundits and even politicians, influenced by opinion in Europe, declared frequently in recent weeks that the Americans had no hope of capturing Saddam Hussein and were therefore bogged down irretrievably in Iraq. The inference was that the Americans erred in embarking on an unwinnable war in Iraq.
This was wide of the mark even before Saddam was brought in. The Americans are in firm control - even though they face a tough new adversary – and the whole purpose of the defeatist argument heard in Israel was to persuade the Sharon government that its position in relation to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat is as hopeless as that of the Americans in Iraq. Israel’s only choice, according to this argument, is to knuckle under to Palestinian demands and give them what they want. Now that the Iraqi ruler is in American custody, they will have to think again.
b14 December
Commander of US ground forces in Iraq, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, said at the dramatic news conference in Baghdad (Bremer: We Got him!), that Saddam Hussein was discovered in a “spider hole” 6-8ft deep behind a mud hut in a walled farm compound in Adwar, a town 15 km from Tikrit, eight months after his regime was toppled.
His capture was achieved without a shot fired and no injuries. He was emaciated, tired and unkempt and had grown a gray beard. The initial medical examination was videotaped and aired. He was then shaved for identification. Found with him were two AK-47 assault rifles and $750,000. Two associates were detained with him. A ventilator enabled them to stay underground. The hole in which Saddam was hiding was camouflaged with bricks and dirt.
Operation “Red Dawn” was carried by 4th Infantry Division and coalition special forces – 600 men. It was made possible by a great deal of human intelligence and the interrogation of captives.
Gen. Sanchez reported the deposed Iraqi ruler, discovered Saturday, December 13, at 8.30 pm local time, showed no resistance and appeared resigned to his fate. He was “talkative and cooperative” while being taken to a secure place. The interrogation will “take as long as it takes.”
US administrator Paul Bremer called on the Iraqi people to turn to reconciliation and Saddam’s followers to lay down their arms.
US troops poured into Baghdad and blocked the road-bridges into the capital as soon as word spread, in anticipation of violence from Saddam fedayeen or foreign terrorists fighting the US-led coalition presence. Baghdadis fired guns in the air to celebrate the capture of the man who ruled the country with an iron fist for 23 years. Kurdish and Shiite towns filled with dancing and jubilation. Iraq officials demand Saddam be handed over to the new Iraqi war crimes tribunal to be judged for the murder of 300,000 Iraqis.
My condolences to all the Saddam lovers out here... :(
Father Of Slain Soldier Finds No Joy In Saddam’s Capture
Sloan says if our nation’s objective was to capture Saddam Hussein, then the mission was accomplished.
“But we we’re over there under the pretense of stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction,” said Sloan.
So the pastor says he can’t find much joy in Saddam’s capture.
Chota - Some people are keeping their prespective unlike many easily distracted members, how many of you lost loved ones to Saddam or indeed Bush?
Saddam Arrest Cheer Fades Into More Iraqi Anger At US
“The only difference is that Saddam would kill you in private, where the Americans will kill you in public.”
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Joy at the capture of Saddam Hussein gave way to resentment toward Washington Monday as Iraqis confronted afresh the bloodshed, shortages and soaring prices of life under U.S. occupation.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3991873
Chota - Back to hum drum reality away from the side show of Saddam
Thank You American soldiers for cleaning the mess your politicians created. I sincerely hope that you find you ex-friend-now-enemy-#1 OBL soon.
One day when we are all strong, u can count on us for cleaning your dirty work. Till then, continue on with the good work.
:teary1: That also included Rumsfeld at one point in time 
Can we bemoan the fact that the US allied itself with Iraq against Iran (the perceived bigger threat of the 80's) one more time? Please? Can we post the infamous Rumsfield-Hussein handshake for the zillionth time?
The US did not make the mess in Iraq or the ME. Let's place the blame for that quagmire where it beongs.
It is for what is perceived to be in their best interests of that country. Iran was overun with religous zealots at the time whose daily chants of Death to America made any of their adversaries our allies.
can we pretend that we were not in bed with this dictator yet again :)
so it happened, lets admit it and move on, and just keep that in the back of our minds that we have at times supported the wrong people, for whatever reasosn that seemed good at that time.
"mujahideen" AKA "Illegal combatants" support was one issue and arming this guy was another among many.
so??
My condolences encompasses everyone who loved him dearly 