Re: Returning to democracy: How?
a constitution that has a clause for a coup. wow. what a target to set while aiming for democracy.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
It was suggested as a guideline for General's should another coup occur. Sadly, with Pakistan that is always a possibility.
The alternative is a blank slate. With that amendment, people can always say "the constitution demans you hold elections within x months".
It is better then the current set up, when reality of Pak is considered.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
a constitution that has a clause for a coup. wow. what a target to set while aiming for democracy.
My suggested alternative is by no means ideal but remember we are talking about Pakistan here. We are not talking about US, UK or even India where the people and the military respect and uphold democratic principles.
Either that or prepare yourselves for time unlimited military rule - Ayub 10 years, Zia 11 years, Musharraf almost 8 years already, if he gets his way it could be 13 years!
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Nice idea. I like it. Make a constitutional amendment outlining the procedures in case of a coup! Only issue now would be to make the General's take notice.
Is there anything that we can do in the west to assit the democratic development of Pakistan?
come on guys a coup is unconstitutional to begin with, Army has no authority what so ever to dismiss an elected government. The best way to deal with this woud be to make judiciary strong so that any follies or corruption by elected governments are challanged in courts and matters decided in courts rather than the military. No General will ever leave until disgraced to the extreme or killed, that is the lust of power. If people in india can elect their politicians why not the pakistanis, we should not doubt the political awreness of our masses
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
^^
That is the crux. Why does democracy flourish across the border, a nation with equal poverty etc, and fail in Pakistan?
The only clear difference between us is religious background.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
come on guys a coup is unconstitutional to begin with, Army has no authority what so ever to dismiss an elected government. The best way to deal with this woud be to make judiciary strong so that any follies or corruption by elected governments are challanged in courts and matters decided in courts rather than the military. No General will ever leave until disgraced to the extreme or killed, that is the lust of power. If people in india can elect their politicians why not the pakistanis, we should not doubt the political awreness of our masses
I second that view. That would be the ideal scenario but I was talking about the reality of Pakistan
Hence we should all support Imran Khan and hope that the SJC's verdict goes in CJ's favour
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Imran Khan has all sane support...amongst NRP's/People of Pak origin.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
These discussions are academic exercises with no basis in reality. If people want democracy, they have to answer some tough questions:
Does Pakistan have (non democratic?) institutions that support democracy?
How long would it take Pakistan to have those institutiosn in place?
Free elections don't make a country democratic. What does democracy mean to Pakistan? Public sentiment for change and 'just' leaders may be hollow idealism not grounded in, well, ground realities.
Is Pakistan strong enough to survive a period of transition to democracy? In light of the external pressures i.e. afgi situation, and internal chaos i.e. mullah movement and other political instabilities, can a vulnerable Pakistan develop gross roots leadership with ties to foreign markets and finance.
Democracy looks great in books but costs money. Who's paying for it?
Is Pakistan governable by civvies? Are Pakistani people law-abiding, tax paying, honest people who can support a "democracy" even if it means obeying strict laws?
Let's answer these questions first before we talk about idealist mumbo jumbo.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
- Is Pakistan governable by civvies? Are Pakistani people law-abiding, tax paying, honest people who can support a "democracy" even if it means obeying strict laws?
Pakistan is very much governable by civvvies and Pakistani people are law abiding, tax paying, honest... yes they are in smaller numbers compared to what we would want it to be, but if governments can sustain development/growth shown in Karachi for last few years, develop infrastructure and provide relief from basic problems like electricity and security I am sure you will see same Pakistani public as most honest, majority (if not all :D) tax paying etc.
The thing is that so far the leaders we have got (I will count from last 2-3 decades):
Benazir Bhutto, she is nothing if you remove the name "Bhutto"
Nawaz Sharif, got his political pumping from army (Ziaul Haq).
Zia did what he could do best to divide and rule, just like he pumped up Altaf Hussein's political career, pumped another crap in NS to be a 'leader'.
We will have to wait until a 'real' leader shows up without 'military' backing and knows what he is doing. Currently no political party is democratic in itself, all of them are had-haram (once elected chief they never let it go), they don't really understand what democracy really means.
Sorry legbreakgoogly for digression :D
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
I second that view. That would be the ideal scenario but I was talking about the reality of Pakistan
Hence we should all support Imran Khan and hope that the SJC's verdict goes in CJ's favour
that may make the judiciary strong, but not clean.
we need a clean, strong judiciary.
and our judiciary is not clean
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Pakistan is very much governable by civvvies and Pakistani people are law abiding, tax paying, honest... yes they are in smaller numbers compared to what we would want it to be,
yeah so those who are paying taxes, the less than 10% are law abiding and honest (atleast when it comes to taxes)...
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
^ well even if it is 10%, it is ray of hope to me :D
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
things will get better gradually when there is meritrocracy and rule of law, it took 40 years in india and now their intitutions are well established, they are no better than us, we can accomplish the same as long as our brave army do what they are supposed to do
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Precisely. Need to foster a culture of respect for democratic traditions.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
..if the democratic traditions are respect worthy..or atleast not disrespect worthy..
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Precisely. Need to foster a culture of respect for democratic traditions.
What are Pakistan's "democratic traditions"? Did Pakistan ever have "democratic traditions"?
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Change is happening before our eyes. Two things were common in Pakistan, leaders led us through iron-hand and international matters were discussed in Islambad only. Recent trends have shown that Pakistanis refuse to be led via iron-hand. Pakistan foreign policy that was negotiated via one person and one person only is no more. This is a great achievement and it will help us grow our democratic institution. Problem is when the 'usual suspect' name start circulating, what kind of progress do you expect? The secular and democratic parties are fighting with each other rather coming on a unified platform.
We have taken the step forward, but still have to grow as a nation. The petty arguments need to end and reconciliation between ethnic sects must start. I think when eventually democracy takes place, these parties will be reforming themselves. We have not been blessed to see a complete decade of democracy, which is why majority is confused on leadership. Once democracy is restored, the active participation will lead to reforms, which will not only challenge the polarizing and controversial portions of major parties, but also create the centrist in our country.
Re: Returning to democracy: How?
Thank you for a positivr and fairly realistic view of what can be expected. I will however add that this would be possible if military, clergy, and fuedals do not do punga.
The picture that you have painted is very encouraging, and realistic.