I find the fact that this issue hasnt been resolved, outright ludicrous. Lets do the name change by referendum, come to a consensus
RF: In the end the MMA and the NWFP Assembly can pass 50 resolutions on renaming, it won't change a thing. the issue remains with the federal government, and when it comes to the provinces the federal government has a blind spot. The reason why it is such an emotive issue in NWFP is because the assembly is totally ignored, on issues like this or on merging FATA with NWFP or on Kalabagh and settling the Hydel Royalty.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Zakk: *
*I find the fact that this issue hasnt been resolved, outright ludicrous. Lets do the name change by referendum, come to a consensus
RF: In the end the MMA and the NWFP Assembly can pass 50 resolutions on renaming, it won't change a thing. the issue remains with the federal government, and when it comes to the provinces the federal government has a blind spot. The reason why it is such an emotive issue in NWFP is because the assembly is totally ignored, on issues like this or on merging FATA with NWFP or on Kalabagh and settling the Hydel Royalty.
[/QUOTE]
Let's drop the thinly disgusied anti-centre/anti-Punjab sentiments here and concentrate on the people and politicians of NWFP. Whatever your usual unfactual gripes against the centre the fact remains that the NWFP provincial government can legislate on a whole raft of things to govern the province and improve the lives of the people. You may thing that is not enough, but that is another point. When has the governments of NWFP be they ANP or MMA legislated with the wide provincial powers they have for the betterment of the people? It seems that to hide their palpable failures to goven the province they have shamelessly mis-used the name of Islam by for example passing this so-called "Shariat Bill", and now seem to be playing the nationalist card in renaming the province?
I agree with RajputFury, there must be a referndum in the NWFP to decide the issue of the name of the province, rather than leave it to the provincial assembly.
*Let's drop the thinly disgusied anti-centre/anti-Punjab sentiments *
Malik I made no anti Punjab comments I think you have made an assumption which seems to imply I am racist?
NWFP provincial government can legislate on a whole raft of things to govern the province and improve the lives of the people*
The point is why hasn't the province been renamed when a significant majority of the elected representatives support renaming? The answer is simple, the same way provincial assembly resolutions have been discarded by the federal government on almost every other issue.
I agree with RajputFury, there must be a referndum in the NWFP to decide the issue of the name of the province, rather than leave it to the provincial assembly.
There must be Malik? Why not allow the Provincial assembly which I am sure represents the mandate of the people of NWFP decide if there should be a referendum before causing a pointless waste of money like the last referendum conducted? Unlike the shariah or Hisba bill, renaming the province Pakhtunkhwa or Khyber or abasin does not effect citizens fundamental rights and it should be a fairly straight forward issue. It is more controversial outside the province.
The NWFP Assembly passes a resolution with an overwhelming majority, the federal government introduces an amendment renaming the province xyz which is then signed into law.
Just for the record: it was the PPP which introduced the Pakhtunkhwa resolution the 2nd and third time, and the original pakhtunistan resolution was intoroduced by the JUI
[quote]
Malik I made no anti Punjab comments I think you have made an assumption which seems to imply I am racist?
[/quote]
No not at all Zakk bhai, that was not the implication :). But previous discussions in this forum are testimony to the fact that when people start blaming the centre for their own problems, the Punjab and Punjabi’s are always dragged in as well. That is a fact.
My point was simple. Before (always) blaming the centre for their ‘miseries’ let’s hear what the governments and the politicians of the provinces (in this case NWFP) have done for the betterment of the people, with the wide powers of legislation and funds they do have. What have the MMA government for instance done in the last eight months for the people of NWFP? Is not their passing of the “Shariat Bill” and now their plans for renaming the province just ploys to disguise their utter failure in governing the province? As I said at the start I am not at all against renaming the NWFP to whatever name is acceptable to it’s peoples, but I am apprehensive that the Islam and nationalist cards are being used by the MMA for their own purposes.
[quote]
The point is why hasn't the province been renamed when a significant majority of the elected representatives support renaming? The answer is simple, the same way provincial assembly resolutions have been discarded by the federal government on almost every other issue.
[/quote]
No, because the fact is that the ‘elected’ representatives from the 1997 election could hardly be called truly representative of the peoples of the province, considering it was such a flawed election. The 2002 election was far more representative but as I said the passing of “Shariat bill” proves that these elected representatives are more interested in using the Islam and nationalist cards for their own purposes.
[quote]
There must be Malik?
[/quote]
Yes, because for the reasons I outlined above I do not trust the politicians of the NWFP, and so this must got to the people of the province. That way even the federal government cannot ignore the wishes of the people of NWFP. I trust the people, not the politicians or others in authority. :)
P.S. Remember how Nawaz promised the ANP that he would agree to NWFP being renamed 'Pakhtunkhwa', then being the predictable back stabbing liar he was he went back on that?
^ Whoops hit the post reply by mistake....Mod shift that post to religion please
Malik: A low voter turnout does not mean politicians are illegitimate, many Western politicians have been elected on the basis of a low turn out. If the MMA passes a resolution in favour of renaming the rpovince xyz, I think the federal government should honour it's wishes (which it probably won't).
Case in point: 3 out 4 provincial assemblies passed resolutions against Kalabagh Dam as well as one standing committe of the Senate. yet to this day the Chairman WAPDA insists the dam will be built eventually.
The federal governmeny is essentially unresponsive to the provinces, and a referendum won't change that fact.
Yes the response to the Pakhtunkhwa resolution and Kalabagh resolutions prove the point.
[/QUOTE]
No absolutely incorrect. I asked you if a referendum has ever been held in NWFP on any issue, and then for it to be ignored by the federal government. Yes or No?
I asked you if a referendum has ever been held in NWFP on any issue, and then for it to be ignored by the federal government. *
The original opposition to remaining was on the basis of the lack of a resolution, when the resolution was passed they now say a referendum should be held.
Referendum's in Pakistan have very little credibility
Even if 100 % of the votes were for the name I supported, I'd still say the poll is rather silly. A poll on an provincial issue being voted by people from all over the country?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Even if 100 % of the votes were for the name I supported, I'd still say the poll is rather silly. A poll on an provincial issue being voted by people from all over the country?
[/QUOTE]
Zakk what you said makes sense, but lets just try to get a feel as to what the people of Pakistan think. We are not going to change the name based on these results, that would be silly, most people here arent even in Pakistan, let alone nwfp.
[QUOTE]
In case of Abbotabad, and Manshera, Masnehra is still predominantly pashtun.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think Mansehra (or the hazara district) ever had pashtun majority (at least in the last 100 year history). I happen to be from hazara region, and though I don't know too much about the ethnic makeup there, I'm pretty sure there are many more hindko speaking people than pushto speaking in that region.
I don't think Mansehra (or the hazara district) ever had pashtun majority (at least in the last 100 year history). I happen to be from hazara region, and though I don't know too much about the ethnic makeup there, I'm pretty sure there are many more hindko speaking people than pushto speaking in that region.
[/QUOTE]
Anyone have statistics??
I have traveled extensively in Hazara, Mardan and Bannu districts. It does seem to me that Hindkians are more urbanized and they certainly have a presence in Manshera. Mardan seems to be heavily hinkian as well.
To be quite honest, if there is a referendum, the majority Pakhtun vote will override Hindkian and other objections.
In Attock we have a simple technique differentiiating between a Pakhtun and a Hinkian...Hinkians call themselves "Pathan." Attock is roughly 50% Hindko, 25% Pakhtun and 25% Punjabi. For Attock dictrict, the number of Punjabis rise as smaller places like Fateh Jang, HassanAbdal are more Punjabi.
I have traveled extensively in Hazara, Mardan and Bannu districts. It does seem to me that Hindkians are more urbanized and they certainly have a presence in Manshera. Mardan seems to be heavily hinkian as well.
To be quite honest, if there is a referendum, the majority Pakhtun vote will override Hindkian and other objections.
In Attock we have a simple technique differentiiating between a Pakhtun and a Hinkian...Hinkians call themselves "Pathan." Attock is roughly 50% Hindko, 25% Pakhtun and 25% Punjabi. For Attock dictrict, the number of Punjabis rise as smaller places like Fateh Jang, HassanAbdal are more Punjabi.
[/QUOTE]
If one really wants analyse the Pakhtun and non-Pakhtun peoples of NWFP and their exact numbers then it can be somewhat misleading to use language statistics alone to judge the true numbers. While a 'majority' of people of Hazara may speak Hindko as a first langauge that does not necessarily make them 'Hindkowans' by ethnicity, because as I understand a great deal of the Hindko-speakers in Hazara are in fact Pakthun tribes who have long forgotten Pashto as mother tongue and now speak Hindko? Similarly it is possible that a lot of people other parts of NWFP are not Pakhtun by ethnicity, but speak Pashto as a first langauage having long forgotten their mother tongues? It may well turn out that Hazara is not as 'Hindkowan' as we think, or that Peshawar is not as 'Pakhtun' as we believe?
Just look at Punjab, a true melting pot of ethnicities. One might think that everyone who speaks Punjabi is a 'Punjabi' but the family names may actually denote Kashmiri, Pakhtun or Balochi roots etc. :)
Well thats good to know. If your a Sindhi (for example), would you want your province being called Kinara (The coast)? Most likely not. Sarhad is a subjective colonist term no better than NWFP.
Afghania, Khyber seem to be good names. I find the fact that this issue hasnt been resolved, outright ludicrous. Lets do the name change by referendum, come to a consensus and move on with Industrial and economic development the province.
[/QUOTE]
I really dont care what they call it. They could call is Pakora or Samosa or Bakar Khani. Even people sometimes change their names, whats wrong with a town or a province changing its name.
If they want to call Sindh "Kinara" more power to them.