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*Originally posted by ghuLail: *
lagta hay may nay bauhat sensitive button press kar diya.
i thot u could use gab loosely to mean plain ease of expression, khair aap baray hain, toa maan laytay hain.
u win. me sorry :)
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Win lose ki baat nahi yaar. You write well and I hope to hear more from you. Khush?
now that everything has been settled, let's stay on-topic :~)
Re: Religion without a God
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*Originally posted by sabah: *
I don't have a clear question that will makes sense, just wondering how one can have a religion without any concept of one or more Gods? What is the status of whatever or whoever replaces the entity of erm 'God' in these 'religions'?
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Sabah, a rambling response to your 'unclear' query...
I am not a philosopher. I am not even particularly religious though I am no atheist either. Just some thoughts on 'religion'...
The following is the sequence in which religion may have developed.
0) There was no concept of a 'god' for the early man. He then saw lightning and floods and death from tigers. He got scared and when he couldn't assign a reason for certain happenings, he became fearful, thought of a superpower and began to 'worship' him
1) Hence, God is dangerous and evil. If you don't worship/ appease him, he will destroy you. That's how sacrifices may have started.
With growth in civilization and knowledge about the causes of things happening around him, there was less to fear.
2) God need not be feared. He will be good to you if you worship him, but he will be evil to you if you don't. God is still seen as a powerful being. Keep him in good humour and he will generally leave you alone.
2 b) I have probably missed out on an intermediate stage. It is okay not to please him, but for heaven's sake, don't antagonise him.
3) God is a good being. He will be good to you if you worship him. Ask for favours and he will grant them to you.
3 b)But you are his child and even if you don't believe in him, he cares for you and will 'forgive' you if you are good and repent.
4) God is the compassionate being. He will be good to you and cares for you irrespective of whether you believe in him or not
5) There is no such thing as god (becomes sort of redundant when I don't need to fear/ appease/ pray to him/her)
The last one is a bit of a leap. This could also be interpreted as 'The god is in you'. I am on slippery ground here, but this is a layman's interpretation. You don't have to worship/ pray. No rituals are required, etc. Effectively, there is no 'separate' being called god. OK, this may not be the same thing as atheism, but is almost like a parallel track to atheism, simply put. Mathematically, 'tending towards atheism'? Probably not the same thing as 'there is no god', but more as 'there is no need for religious practices, rituals and thoughts and scriptures'.
To my mind early Buddhism followed this principle. Buddhism was primarily a revolt against ritualistic hinduism; the teachings were a set of moral guidelines for the individual and the society rather than a religion in the sense that we talk today. Buddha did not claim to be a god.
I do realise that one probably needs to go step by step to reach stage 5. It would be too presumptous of anybody to think that they could jump stages in their search for god.
Note that most religious practices have elements of each of the above stages (even if the religion itself doesn't).
Am I making sense?
Religion is more a set of belief systems, birds and frogs do not qualify as Muslims 
Re: Religion without a God
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sabah: *
I was searching for something else, but found this:
"…...The problem of this definition is that it eliminates several "systems" which do not have a God, as such. One example is Buddhism - the Buddha being just a very exemplary, wise and good human. Another example might be Native American ethnic religions - they always gave me the impression that they were not too concerned with the concept of a Deity. [or was that just my impression?] Are these not religions? "
I don't have a clear question that will makes sense, just wondering how one can have a religion without any concept of one or more Gods? What is the status of whatever or whoever replaces the entity of erm 'God' in these 'religions'?
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you are following a set of beliefs that does not erquire you to worship a being as such. Why is that difficult to conceptualise?
Morality is not necessarily a commodity of religion. It's also embedded in evolution. Certain moral values are necessary to propogate human life and basic stability in society. Religion is basically a mean for spirituality. Spirituality is a mean to answer the unanswerable. Unanswerables are the questions about existence, meaning of life, and life after existence, with or without the concept of God.
"You don't have to worship/ pray. No rituals are required, etc."
But Buddhist and other 'Godless' religions do have the concept of worship, or mediate (sp?) which is similar to praying I'd say. Only difference being that its not mandatory like namaz is in Islam, correct?
"Spirituality is a mean to answer the unanswerable. Unanswerable are the questions about existence, meaning of life, and life after existence, with or without the concept of God"
This to me sounds like replacing one word with another (God and spirituality). Only difference being that spirituality doesn't deal with punishments or accountability.
This to me sounds like replacing one word with another (God and spirituality).
Spirituality and God are completely different concepts in nature. God is an entity while spirituality deals with sense, state, feeling.
True meditation has nothing to do with god. The purpose is the unification of all your senses onto a focal point. In religion, the focal point could be god. But you could have your focal point as your mother or your girl friend.
Try to control your breathing and let your mind think about only your girl friend. Focus on her image. If required, chant her name to help you focus. Close your eyes to avoid distractions. Choose a serene location where you cannot be disturbed. You will have the same benefits as medidating on god.
No, I am not an atheist and I am not writing this in jest.
Lekin Roman, God those that too, dealing with feelings and all. What I meant to say was that according to your description, its pretty much the same thing, but I agree there should be a difference, maybe just for the heck of it. It looks like words are replaced to give it a more 'balanced' look. Or maybe I get this impression cuz you haven't described God.
Raja, that's true. But me second question is still not answered yet :o
sabah, the concept of God is a mean to attain spirituality. Some attain it without the cocept of God.
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*Originally posted by sabah: *
Raja, that's true. But me second question is still not answered yet :o
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I suppose you are referring to this question
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What is the status of whatever or whoever replaces the entity of erm 'God' in these 'religions'?
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As ghuLail said, "All religions, if they survive long enough have deities".
Man in his (finite) wisdom 'godifies' the entitity. Even OBL is god, to some, in the sense that they would do his command.
Buddha is the classic example. He did not claim he was god, nor even a prophet of god. But Buddhism is now associated with Buddha. You have a temple in Sri Lanka where his tooth is believed to be located and is worshipped. There hardly exists any buddhist temple without the idol of Buddha.
Forget about religion, we deitify others as well. If you are old enough to be separated from say, your parents, how many times have you felt, particularly when you are in the dumps, "how I wish my dad/mom/bro/sis were here?". You are in fact drawing inner strength from them.
This could be heresy to some, but how different is this when you think of god, when you are down?