Regime change, al-Qaeda style

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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*How does Iran example fits the description? Ask any Iranian if they want Reza Shah back. Ask any Iranian if Shah was better then mullahs. Do you see mass demonstrations the size that eventually toppled the shah? so far I have seen none and yes I do work with Iranians and get first hand feedback. *

they dont want reza shah back, but theya re not too fond of the clerics either, again my point was that they went from one ruler to another hoping it would be ebtter and the honeymoon phase was over quick. Surely you are not the only person who works with Iranians..and the way they have been voting shows their disenchantment with the clerics

*So please explain then how is India labeled as the biggest democracy and is in the good books of US. *

political interests, simple answer.

*I am sure you are not implying that Pashtuns are idiots since they have elected mullahs by overwhelming majority. Don’t even try that there were no other choices. Have you seen any demonstrations against these what you call mullahs? *

please explain why you would think that I implied pashtuns were idiots? I plainly said that people have seen idiocy of mullahs.

I also did not say that there were NO other choices, the statement was that when people go on a rebound and bring mullahs like these in power, sooner or later they will realize that these idiots are not going to accomplish jack for teh province.

*How can you be so sure they will not be reelected? *

How can you be sure that they WILL be re-elected? I am basing my hypothesis on teh fact that these gusy dont have a real plan, so they will not be able to deliver anything fo value to the people.

*And what makes you think if a pro western thug a non mulla comes to power will provide roti kapra and makan? *

its not guranateed, I never said that its a given. I said between two idiots, one that actually does something for the people is the lesser of two evil. It was not a guarantee that a non mullah type will be good for teh country in all cases.

Other political groups in Pakistan dont or did nto have any policies and plans either, but the mullah platform is limited to nifaaz e shriaa. no concrete answers no well developed plans. Is this lameness only limited to MMA ..nope other parties as well, Hoever MMA has not done jack for NWFP since getting in power there aside from closing cinemas etc...u know the oh so important stuff.

*Lets not discuss hypothetical scenarios and stress on what we have seen so far, *

the dang post was on a hypothetical scenario of a regime change, I just checked the news and so far there is no regime change to the entire basis of this post was a hypothesis, and I had further elaborated on the hypothesis.

and I did note what we have seen so far, i.e. the decrease in support for all religious parties in pakistan until they ran on an anti-US platform which appealed to many who were not happy with the war in afghanistan. when they fail to deliver anything people will have issues. what we have also seen thus far is the sentiment in Iran which is against the clergy led govt, however the clergy has a grip oin power and is not letting it go.

If these groups had a real solution and a real plan for their countries it would be a diff thing, but banning music, and closing cinemas does not accomplish diddly squat.

42

Sunshine,

Please go back up and answer my last question in my post wrt India.

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BJP are just as much of idiots as our mullah types, however.. the one big key difference, BJP has some sense of economic, technbological, development plans as well. does that change teh fact that they are idiots NO.

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Well that is not the point, the point is its genocide and links with Nazis. There are lot of none democratic countries doing better then India but that is no excuse for burning alive 2000 muslims and cutting up pragnenet women and burning their babies. And to rub it in for the democrats India is called the biggest democracy LOL…

Here is an excerpt on BJP and its links with Nazis.

For full story please go to:-
http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DC15Df01.html

** Given its history, its ideological orientation, and the nature of the
social movements it relies on for core support, this is not
surprising. The BJP is the successor organization of the Janasangh, a
party founded in 1950 by members of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) or Association of National Volunteers, a proto-fascist Hindu
nationalist, paramilitary-type (khaki shorts/white shirts) organization founded in 1925 and modeled after Mussolini/Hitler/Franco black/brown/blue-shirt outfits. (RSS co-founder B S Moonje met Mussolini in Rome in 1931 and subsequently structured the RSS on the lines of the Fascist Academy of Physical Education.) **

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so you are thus saying that if we also elect a bunch of religious bigot fanatics, we will keep re-electing them the way indians have?

hmmm that is disturbing.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
BJP are just as much of idiots as our mullah types, however.. the one big key difference, BJP has some sense of economic, technbological, development plans as well. does that change teh fact that they are idiots NO.
[/QUOTE]

You keep on pushing this mantra that the Mullah (religious right) have no economic, or technological sense, as if all the non religious parties have that. I think what abdali have said about the political left and center is almost what I ma saying. Islam can be used by mullah for its purposes, but its misuse is not just left to Mullahs alone.

The core of my argument is that all political parties should have one goal and that is Hizb Allah. So for that we should encourage anyone who uses Islam its principles to provide peace and justice.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
so you are thus saying that if we also elect a bunch of religious bigot fanatics, we will keep re-electing them the way indians have?

hmmm that is disturbing.
[/QUOTE]

No I am not saying that at all, I making few points here citing my examples above.

1) majority rules (one man one vote) If the majority is happy with a fanatic then thats how its going to be, you cannot have double standards.

2) "who ever toe's the US line" Dictator can be in US good books and at the same time a democratically elected regime can be axis of evil.

3) I'd rather support a dictator who is good for the people then a pro western democrat who will bend over for US.

In Pakistan no mullah has formed a govt given the experience with Budnazar / 10 percent, Ganja/abaji I'd vote for a mullah any time.

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Abdali

and if they are unable to do anything for the country will you vote for them again?

I would always support someone who is good for the country, whether he is an armyman, a cleric or a business tycoon.

I just think that the types of guys who are running MMA dont have what it takes.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Abdali

and if they are unable to do anything for the country will you vote for them again?

I would always support someone who is good for the country, whether he is an armyman, a cleric or a business tycoon.

I just think that the types of guys who are running MMA dont have what it takes.
[/QUOTE]

Ever heard lesser of the two evils, so far democratically elected goons have done wonders. The worse decade in Pak history is from 1990 to 2000 and we all know who was in the driving seat.

If MMA don't have what it takes then trust me our politicians are no better.

50

abdali if you scroll back to my earlier posts i had said that people may pick some of these religious parties as the lesser of two evils, but when the lesser evil does not really change their life in a positive manner, they will look for other options.

so the religious parties may come into power on such a sentiment. i.e. anything but what we have now sort of approach. but once the people are there, its only human to want more, and when they wont get it the support for the religious parties will dwindle.

why is that likely to happen u may ask, because they just dont have a plan. I mean yes we have heard of nifaaz e shariaa, but unless they have more than that to offer, they are not going to do much for the common person.

If they have a vision and they can build the economy, infrastructure, industry, have good education, defense, healthcare policies..more power to them, but they sure dont talk about it much and when they do it is not beyond a 5th grade thinking level.

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But as we speak based on the performance of previous govts I am pretty sure MMA is the lesser of the two evils. After all Pak was at the brink of bankruptcy due to corruption and we can only chose from the leaders we have if we can call them leaders. Besides I was looking at from a certain "champions of democracy" point of view how certain evil regimes get a pat in the back and certain are labled fundos regardless of the system of governance.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Why is that likely to happen u may ask, because they just dont have a plan. I mean yes we have heard of nifaaz e shariaa, but unless they have more than that to offer, they are not going to do much for the common person.

If they have a vision and they can build the economy, infrastructure, industry, have good education, defense, healthcare policies..more power to them, but they sure dont talk about it much and when they do it is not beyond a 5th grade thinking level.
[/QUOTE]

The plan they have is compromised to come in power, just like any other political party. We expect to much from a party, which is already bound by the rules of the game. For example, Can the MMA change the police structure in any of the two provinces? NO, can they change the tax structure? NO So how can they deleiver. They end up doing 5th grade level changes because this is what the system allows them to do. So any aprty with a an agenda for change for the common man loses, if they dont have the federal govt. and the federal is controlled by a different bunch altogather, which for the last 53 years had little to do for common man.

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Originally posted by MiniMe: *
*
The plan they have is compromised to come in power, just like any other political party. We expect to much from a party, which is already bound by the rules of the game. **

so if no political party can deliver teh goods why should we vote for MMA, cuz we like teh shamama tul amber itar fragrance?

** For example, Can the MMA change the police structure in any of the two provinces? NO, can they change the tax structure? NO So how can they deleiver. **

can they formulate better social and educational policies for the province that they are running? can they develop policies to increase industrial production? can they directly impact the provincial budget to improve healthcare conditions? can they take actions to abolish bonded labour? can they outlaw honor killings?

the answer is yes to all of the above..now the question is have they dont any of that?

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You are right if they can not deliver, we should not vote for them. So **this is **thier chance. May be some one else may come up with more better plan.

IF we take the MMA condition out you will see that plan or no plan they all have failed to deliver. DO you think the current govt have formulated better social and educational policies? How did they develop policies to increase industrial production and on what expense? what are they doing to improve healthcare conditions? what actions they have taken to abolish bonded labor? did the current regime outlaw honor killings? if the answer to all this is yes, then there is still a long way to go, and remember MMA is just in two provinces. Why can’t they deliver?

The thing is there is this wrong sense attributed to any thing which is Islamic, and its pretty strong in Pakistan and other muslim countries as well. But the point that we have to remember as Muslims is that nations, cultures, systems comes and go the Deen of Allah has its principles and it remains.

55

How bout a change?

Vote for a party that respects and cares for people?

Vote for a party that has a well-rounded agenda, not just an agenda that benefits the members of the party and party-members a.k.a. Hitler.

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AAG errr were you following the discussion at all? I mean what you are saying is all well and good and an optimal solution, motherhood and apple pie. We are talking about a hypthetical scenario where that option is not available.

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So abdali, when will the transfer of power take place?

58

:hehe: